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Old 08-07-2019, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,137 posts, read 14,362,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The minimum wage rate is applied to the least desirable employee or applicant for the least challenging job. Those people are in the poorest of wage negotiating positions.
Wrong.

You don't have a single shred of evidence to support such an asinine statement.

Here, White Castle's hamburgers starts people at $11.50/hour with a $0.50/increase to $12.00/hour after 6 months.

Warehouse workers get the Ohio minimum wage of $8.55/hour.

Well, not really.

Most of the warehouses shut down and moved over to Kentucky where it's $7.25/hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
When the federal minimum wage rate's increased, employers (are not required, but due to the concepts of wage differentials,) also generally increase their other wage rates.
Wrong again.

A minimum wage does not cause other wages to rise, but it can cause other wages to stagnate or decrease.

I would explain production costs, price elasticity and wages, but half of it would go over your head and the other half would go way, way over your head.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:38 PM
 
6,382 posts, read 6,475,969 times
Reputation: 2932
When they raise minimum wage is usually as a lagging indicator. Prices have already gone up. So unless they raise the minimum to an exorbitant amount, then all it really does is keep minimum wage workers from falling further down the rabbit hole.

Raising minimum wage the way USA has been for decades wont make low end workers rich. But it does let them maintain whatever life style they have already, like a steak dinner once every month, intact.

You cannot really object to the concept of the minimum wage, but rather high or low it becomes.

One last small bump in expenses will not cause that monumental shift in prices. As prices have already been increasing, people can only take so much increase in prices as it is, especially when their wages have not increased.

Minimum wage workers or people closer to that end of that spectrum will most certainly not be able to take anymore price bumps, and will likely stop purchasing as items are already reaching beyond their means.

How will the businesses that cater to people on the lower end of the wage spectrum stay in business if their customers are getting poorer and poorer?

And that does not mean goods/services wont continue to get even more expensive than a raise in wages can justify.

Last edited by NJ Brazen_3133; 08-07-2019 at 07:58 PM..
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:51 PM
 
1,365 posts, read 710,142 times
Reputation: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn
The minimum wage rate is applied to the least desirable employee or applicant for the least challenging job. Those people are in the poorest of wage negotiating positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Wrong.
You don't have a single shred of evidence to support such an asinine statement.

Here, White Castle's hamburgers starts people at $11.50/hour with a $0.50/increase to $12.00/hour after 6 months.
Warehouse workers get the Ohio minimum wage of $8.55/hour.
Well, not really.
Most of the warehouses shut down and moved over to Kentucky where it's $7.25/hour. ...
Mircea, you're contending the minimum wage rate is NOT applied to the least desirable employee or applicant for the least challenging job? Those people are not among those in the poorest of wage negotiating positions?

Are you able to explain precisely what you're contending in that post?
Nothing that I excerpted from the remainder of your post is contradictory to anything I've posted.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:06 PM
 
6,382 posts, read 6,475,969 times
Reputation: 2932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Wrong.

You don't have a single shred of evidence to support such an asinine statement.

Here, White Castle's hamburgers starts people at $11.50/hour with a $0.50/increase to $12.00/hour after 6 months.

Warehouse workers get the Ohio minimum wage of $8.55/hour.

Well, not really.

Most of the warehouses shut down and moved over to Kentucky where it's $7.25/hour.

.
Because the lower minimum was the only thing that can possibly drive the warehouses to Kentucky, and not perhaps lower taxes, or lower RE costs. Since you know Ohio has way more people than Kentucky.

Also with Ohio having more people, most of the warehoused goods are probably going more to Ohio, so there is the increased transportation costs. How much are the delivery people making now they make a longer trip?
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:30 PM
 
1,365 posts, read 710,142 times
Reputation: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
...Wrong again.
A minimum wage does not cause other wages to rise, but it can cause other wages to stagnate or decrease.

I would explain production costs, price elasticity and wages, but half of it would go over your head and the other half would go way, way over your head.
Mircea, If Hr 582 were enacted, the first of six increases would raise the minimum wage from $7.25 to $8.55 per hour. You're contending that an employer would follow the letter of the law and increase only prior wage rates that were below $8.55/Hr?

You don't see a problem with not increasing any other wage rates?
An employer will have no additional problems retaining employees those employees that did not receive raises when those below the minimum received them? That employer will not experience any recruiting problems when attempting to recruit additional or replacement employees for the same job descriptions at the same wage rates existing prior to the minimum's increase?

If that's the practices you're familiar with, they differ greatly from any USA city or suburban area that I'm familiar with.

Last edited by Supposn; 08-07-2019 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:08 AM
 
8,426 posts, read 9,188,185 times
Reputation: 6843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
EDS, thank you for the tone of your responses.
City-Data Moderators have instructed me not sign my posts; “Signatures are disabled. Do not include "manual" signatures in your posts. You can put a lot of information in your profile instead”.
My practice in all other groups is to sign my posts as “Respectfully, Supposn”. It reminds myself and all others of mutual respects' common benefits.
//////////
(1) I don't understand your post's reference to “(~$31 hr.)”. I made no reference to $31/Hr?
(2) I'm defending my statements, rather than what you believe the French left contends.
(3) I've tried to understand some things regarding Australia's minimum wage rate laws, but I'm not at the moment prepared to discuss their entire economy.
But USA's Federal minimum wage laws, or any individual facet of any industrial nation's economy, is not entirely responsible for the nation's economic wellbeing.

If a superior minimum wage law should be enacted, there's still need for superior acts governing our global trade, our educational, and our healthcare systems. Any improvement of our training and education would be no less reflected by consequential improvement of our economic and social wellbeing.

Referring to the first post within this thread:
When the purchasing power of the minimum wage is reduced, I do not pretend to know the extent or proportion of the median wage's loss. But because lower rate earners outnumber higher earners, the median wage must suffer some loss; that's a mathematical certainty.

What, if any fault do you perceive with that reasoning?
1. An increase to prevailing minimum wages will have little impact on those making around median incomes of roughly $31.

2. I brought up France for context.

3. I brought up Australia because Australia has a very high minimum wage. An examination of key employment metrics there makes the point of US conservatives...........higher minimum wages cause higher unemployment among that cadre. Further, Australia's high minimum wage seems to have done nothing to increase median incomes.
__________________________

Regarding your closing thesis........I'm not sure what you mean.

Last edited by EDS_; 08-08-2019 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:21 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,836 posts, read 40,296,356 times
Reputation: 24113
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. An increase to prevailing minimum wages will have little impact on those making around median incomes of roughly $31.

2. I brought up France for context.

3. I brought up Australia because Australia has a very high minimum wage. An examination of key employment metrics there makes the point of US conservatives...........higher minimum wages cause higher unemployment among that cadre. Further, Australia's high minimum wage seems to have done nothing to increase median incomes.
__________________________

Regarding your closing thesis........I'm sure what you mean.
agree...>>higher minimum wages cause higher unemployment among that cadre.

Australia is a good example, we spent 6 months doing volunteer building projects, and the 'quality of customer service / knowledge in supply stores was pathetic'. Assistants would blatantly tell you; "I am not helping you find or load your merchandise, I get $18/ hr whether I am playing on the internet, talking with co-workers or helping you. Load your own Gyprock, you bought it... you load it".

In USA you will see a lot more automation to replace jobs, (self ordering, checkout and such).

With regs and benefits it usually costs an employer 2x the wages.
Entry level workers are NOT worth it, they can actually degrade your business success. (Especially if operating equipment or dealing with customers)
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:59 AM
 
1,365 posts, read 710,142 times
Reputation: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Disagree.
1). The notion that incremental increases in the minimum wage exert much pressure on median incomes (~$31 hr.) seems to be unsupported by experience and academic research. ...
EDS. minimum wage rate certainly does have an impact upon the median employee's rate and we concur that its impact is greater upon lower, and lesser upon higher wage rates.
I and I don't suppose you know what's the proportional reduction of median wage rate's purchasing power that's due to any specific reduction to the minimum's purchasing power?

You're stating the median wage earners rate's $31/per hour? The median wage earner (if fully employed), earns $62,000 per year? How did you arrive at that?
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:18 PM
 
1,365 posts, read 710,142 times
Reputation: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. An increase to prevailing minimum wages will have little impact on those making around median incomes of roughly $31. ...
_________________________
Regarding your closing thesis........I'm not sure what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn:
… Referring to the first post within this thread:
When the purchasing power of the minimum wage is reduced, I do not pretend to know the extent or proportion of the median wage's loss. But because lower rate earners outnumber higher earners, the median wage must suffer some loss; that's a mathematical certainty. ...
__________________________



EDS, USA's average employees' wage rate is greater than their median employees' wage rate. Generally, within USA industries, and within USA enterprises, the employees' average earnings are greater than their median earnings; (i.e. there are more employees earning lesser, rather than greater than employees' average earnings).

Any reduction of the minimum wage rate's purchasing power has a detrimental effect upon the median wage rate's purchasing power. That's not an opinion, but a mathematically logical conclusion.

There are those arguing their preference for persons be employed at rates lesser than any explicitly determined definite minimum wage rate, rather than being unemployed.

I'm among those contending a job's value is gauged by its wage's purchasing power. I would rather our government provide unemployment insurance and public assistance if necessary, rather than permit an indefinite market-determined minimum wage's “race to the bottom” and reduce the purchasing powers of the median families incomes.

“We all do better if we all do better”. The corollary of that is we in aggregate cannot do as well if some of us are doing more poorly than otherwise.

Last edited by Supposn; 08-08-2019 at 12:29 PM..
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:52 PM
 
1,365 posts, read 710,142 times
Reputation: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
... 3. I brought up Australia because Australia has a very high minimum wage. An examination of key employment metrics there makes the point of US conservatives...........higher minimum wages cause higher unemployment among that cadre. Further, Australia's high minimum wage seems to have done nothing to increase median incomes. ....
EDS, I don't suppose you're prepared to argue or demonstrate cause and effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
EDS, ... (3) I've tried to understand some things regarding Australia's minimum wage rate laws, but I'm not at the moment prepared to discuss their entire economy.
But USA's Federal minimum wage laws, or any individual facet of any industrial nation's economy, is not entirely responsible for the nation's economic wellbeing.

If a superior minimum wage law should be enacted, there's still need for superior acts governing our global trade, our educational, and our healthcare systems. Any improvement of our training and education would be no less reflected by consequential improvement of our economic and social wellbeing. ...
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