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Old 08-20-2019, 05:41 PM
 
1,794 posts, read 839,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Import Certificates:

I'm among the proponents of the improved trade policy described within Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article. The unilateral proposal would significantly reduce, (if not entirely eliminate) USA's annual trade deficits of goods and would be of net benefit to our economy.

Annual trade deficits indicate our nation has purchased more products than we have produced. Trade deficits are particularly detrimental to their nation's numbers of jobs and amounts of payrolls.

All of the proposal's direct net costs are passed on to USA purchasers of imported goods and any such costs due to markets' behaviors serve as price subsidies for USA's exported goods.

The policy is not a net source of government tax revenue, and other than determining the values of cargo passing through USA's borders, the policy grants no policy discretion to the federal government. Valuation is determined as within the USA expressed in U.S. Dollars.

Refer to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_certificates
Sorry, the entire concept is stupid and not worth considering. There's nothing wrong with trade deficits.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
Sorry, the entire concept is stupid and not worth considering. There's nothing wrong with trade deficits.
WRM20:[/quote]Mathjak107, annual trade deficits indicate their nation have purchased more products than they've produced.
We individually purchase imported goods because we (usually correctly) perceive our net benefits from doing so. Although individuals and our society's best interests coincide, we do have laws and regulations prohibiting agreements and actions that our various governments' legislators and our authorized executives have deemed to be contrary to our economic or social wellbeing.

USA's chronic annual trade deficits net reduce our numbers of jobs and the amounts of our payrolls more than otherwise. I'm among the proponents of the improved trade policy described in Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article which would be net beneficial to our economy.
Refer to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_certificates
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:53 PM
 
1,406 posts, read 719,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
... It only seems to make sense we are going to buy more from outside the country then we sell to others ...
Mathjak107, refer to post #12. How does purchasing more than we produce makes sense?

Import Certificate policy is not an anti-trade policy, but it doesn't tolerate net losses of jobs and wages due to chronic annual trade deficits of goods.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,225 posts, read 14,407,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Import Certificates:

I'm among the proponents of the improved trade policy described within Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article.
An article you wrote, so don't try to play it off as though someone knowledgeable in Economics wrote it.

Quote:
This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations.
And educated person would never write the garbage in that Puki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The unilateral proposal would significantly reduce, (if not entirely eliminate) USA's annual trade deficits of goods and would be of net benefit to our economy.
It would harm the economy and reduce people's Standard of Living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Annual trade deficits indicate our nation has purchased more products than we have produced.
That's a patently false statement, but typical of propaganda artists and people who are clueless.

A trade deficit indicates the value of imported items exceeds the value of exported items.

The operand is "value" and value does not suggest or indicate the number of items imported or exported.

You can import 50 Million items and export 100 Million items and still have a trade deficit, if the value of the imported items exceeds the value of the exported items.

In that case, the number of products produced exceeded the number of products imported, demonstrating your total and complete lack of knowledge on the subject matter, not to mention it totally contradicts your patently false claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Trade deficits are particularly detrimental to their nation's numbers of jobs and amounts of payrolls.
No, they aren't and you have never once provided any economic evidence to support your false beliefs and that's because there is no evidence to support your false beliefs.

There are items on this Earth that simply cannot be produced in the United States.

There are any number of trees, plants, fruits and vegetables that cannot be produced in the US due to climate conditions.

You would deny Americans those goods with your stupid import certificate nonsense.

Rattan does not grow in the US, but there's a factory in the US employing 450 workers that imports rattan. Originally, they had less than 100 workers, because all they made was patio furniture, since rattan is so durable it can be left outdoors year-round. Then they hired some engineers, interior designers and planners and started producing rattan kitchen tables and chairs, then bar stools, then dining-room furniture then living room furniture and now they employ 450 people.

The GDP generated by those 450 workers and the sale of rattan furniture far exceeds the value of the imported rattan not to mention it increases the Standard of Living for Americans.

The US imports metal ores and non-metallic minerals, too. The US needs them not only for their applications in the defense industry to defend the US, but also for your high-tech electronic world.

The US does have a lot of those metal ores and non-metallic minerals, yet it imports them.

That's because it's far cheaper than serving eviction notices on all renters in New York City and foreclosing on all private property in New York City, seizing the properties through Eminent Domain, so that all the buildings and structures can be demolished and New York City can be turned into a gigantic open-pit mine to get those Rare Earth metal ores and minerals so you can feel good about yourself.

I talked with an ASIS member who works for Family Dollar. Those plastic kitchen gadgets are $0.037 from factory floor in China to any Family Dollar store.

Since we know the cost of the item, we can drive the number from the value.

So, $1 of imported plastic kitchen gadgets and that is 26 gadgets which Family Dollar sells for $1 each.

That means $1 of imports generated $26+ of GDP.

That totally blows your whole entire import certificate nonsense.

You still can't wrap your brain around the reality that $1 of imports does not equal $1 of GDP.

$1 of imports generates 5, 10, 20, 40, 50 times the amount of GDP (depending on the item).

That's why your false beliefs are wrong.

If the US has GDP of $17.5 TRILLION with a $500 Billion trade deficit, you say the GDP is reduced $500 Billion to $17 TRILLION.

That's where you're wrong. That $500 Billion generated $4.5 TRILLION in GDP.

If you don't have that $500 Billion trade deficit, then your GDP drops to $12.5 TRILLION.

And then you say the US is better-off with a GDP of $12.5 TRILLION instead of $17 TRILLION.

Really? Maybe in your fantasy world, but not in reality.

Trade creates jobs, because trade frees up labor to be used more efficiently elsewhere in the economy.

And you're going to say, "B-b-b-b-but there 6,556,000 unemployed"

Yeah, so? This is 2019 not 1519. If this was 1519 you might be right because in 1519 most people could change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.

But that's not how it is today. Your government recognizes 800+ skill-sets but most people have only one or two skill-sets and perhaps two or three related skill-sets.

Few people have the manufacturing skill-set and even those that do don't want any part of manufacturing. They'd rather get paid $20/hour to sit in a cushy office and play on their smart phone and gossip day than get paid $40/hour to actually work on a factory floor (where you're standing all day).

Contrary to your false beliefs, labor is not a abundant as you think.

You can pay worker to make plastic kitchen gadgets or you can pay workers to make high-tech electronic equipment, but you cannot do both, since the Laws of Physics say no one can be in two places at the same time.

Why not off-shore plastic kitchen gadgets to China, and use those workers to make high-tech electronic equipment instead?

So what if you have a trade deficit? The GDP generated by the high-tech electronic equipment is far greater than the GDP generated by plastic kitchen gadgets.

Since that high-tech equipment is sold domestically instead of being exported, you're too blind to see that the GDP generated by the high-tech equipment obliterates and negates the trade deficit created by importing plastic kitchen gadgets.

The $100 Billion in GDP generated by the high-tech equipment wipes out the $10 Million in trade deficits created by importing plastic kitchen gadgets, even though that $10 Million imported ultimately generates $260 Million in GDP.

So quit with the import certificate nonsense, unless you enjoy being cannon fodder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Jiminnm, the net balance of international trade is effectively, also a measure of the nation's purchases vs. production volumes.
No, it is not.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:29 PM
 
1,406 posts, read 719,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
... Originally Posted by Supposn: "Annual trade deficits indicate our nation has purchased more products than we have produced...".

A trade deficit indicates the value of imported items exceeds the value of exported items.

The operand is "value" and value does not suggest or indicate the number of items imported or exported.

You can import 50 Million items and export 100 Million items and still have a trade deficit, if the value of the imported items exceeds the value of the exported items.

In that case, the number of products produced exceeded the number of products imported, demonstrating your total and complete lack of knowledge on the subject matter, not to mention it totally contradicts your patently false claim.

No, they aren't and you have never once provided any economic evidence to support your false beliefs and that's because there is no evidence to support your false beliefs. ...
Mircea, other than the trivial matter of wording that's not of concern of others less petty than you, if the statement were worded as, "USA has annually spent more for products, than the values of products we produced", would you agree?

Or do you disagree with both that statement and the contention of USA's chronic annual trade deficits have always been and will continue to be net detrimental to our economy?

Last edited by Supposn; 08-23-2019 at 06:38 PM..
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
... You would deny Americans those goods with your stupid import certificate nonsense.

Rattan does not grow in the US, but there's a factory in the US employing 450 workers that imports rattan. Originally, they had less than 100 workers, because all they made was patio furniture, since rattan is so durable it can be left outdoors year-round. Then they hired some engineers, interior designers and planners and started producing rattan kitchen tables and chairs, then bar stools, then dining-room furniture then living room furniture and now they employ 450 people.

The GDP generated by those 450 workers and the sale of rattan furniture far exceeds the value of the imported rattan not to mention it increases the Standard of Living for Americans. ...
Mircea, I'm not an opponent of foreign trade, but a USA's chronic great annual trade deficits indicate our purchases exceed the value of our entire productions. That cannot be a prudent economic policy.

[I'm a proponent of the policy describe within Wikipedia's “Import certificates” article which I encountered during a search for something else. I thank you for your flattering accusation that the writing style is attributable to me, but I do agree with the Wikipedia article].

If there's an effective demand for any product, a nation's Import Certificate policy could not prevent that product from being imported.

Regarding your post's mention of a USA factory producing furniture from imported Rattan:
If that's now a profitable enterprise under free trade, it would likely be more profitable if USA adopts Wikipedia's described Import Certificate policy. Your contrary conclusion is wrong.

Someone no less capable as yourself can re-read the Wikipedia article and your logical error would soon be apparent to them.

[I don't know that rattan doesn't exist or cannot be grown in the USA, but I suppose rattan generally is not commercially harvested in the USA?]
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Old Yesterday, 05:32 AM
 
1,794 posts, read 839,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Mircea, I'm not an opponent of foreign trade, but a USA's chronic great annual trade deficits indicate our purchases exceed the value of our entire productions. That cannot be a prudent economic policy.

[I'm a proponent of the policy describe within Wikipedia's “Import certificates” article which I encountered during a search for something else. I thank you for your flattering accusation that the writing style is attributable to me, but I do agree with the Wikipedia article].

If there's an effective demand for any product, a nation's Import Certificate policy could not prevent that product from being imported.

Regarding your post's mention of a USA factory producing furniture from imported Rattan:
If that's now a profitable enterprise under free trade, it would likely be more profitable if USA adopts Wikipedia's described Import Certificate policy. Your contrary conclusion is wrong.

Someone no less capable as yourself can re-read the Wikipedia article and your logical error would soon be apparent to them.

[I don't know that rattan doesn't exist or cannot be grown in the USA, but I suppose rattan generally is not commercially harvested in the USA?]
Deficits are not due to imports exceeding production, they are due to imports exceeding exports, and there are lots of countries where this happens. Countries that restrict imports tend to suffer economically, or they try to force inefficient economic decisions. For example, at one time, Peru required cars to be built in the country. Peru doesn't buy enough vehicles to make it economically feasible to build them in the country, and that policy failed and Peru had a car shortage. I also think back to the "voluntary" import restrictions on Japanese cars in the 70's/80's that were supposed to revive the US car industry. All that happened was US car makers raised their prices on the same crappy cars. There was no benefit.

If import certificates aren't available because they've all been used on other products, then the rattan company will fail.

The only effective means to control imports is tariffs, and they have their own issues. I've read the article, and it's drivel.
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Old Yesterday, 07:07 AM
 
1,406 posts, read 719,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
Deficits are not due to imports exceeding production, they are due to imports exceeding exports, and there are lots of countries where this happens. Countries that restrict imports tend to suffer economically, or they try to force inefficient economic decisions. ...
... If import certificates aren't available because they've all been used on other products, then the rattan company will fail.
The only effective means to control imports is tariffs, and they have their own issues. I've read the article, and it's drivel.
WRM20 & Mircea, explain how imports can exceed exports if the nation doesn't purchase goods of greater value than their entire production? You both read Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article but didn't think it through?

The global Import Certificate market can never be “cornered”. If global market prices of the certificates are too high, it's become feasible to export USA goods at a price reduction and net profit from the acquired Certificates.

To the extent that the global market prices exceed what's due to federal expenditures, (i.e. due to markets behaviors') Import certificate prices then behave as an indirect but effective price subsidy for USA's exported goods. (All of the proposal's net costs are passed on to USA purchasers of imported goods).

USA's Rattan furniture producers will pay the additional prices of imported rattan. But competitive importers of furniture will pay the additional costs based upon the values of their entire products. If producing USA rattan furniture is now profitable, it will be more profitable if USA adopts the Import Certificate policy.

Last edited by Supposn; Yesterday at 07:19 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:46 PM
 
1,794 posts, read 839,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
WRM20 & Mircea, explain how imports can exceed exports if the nation doesn't purchase goods of greater value than their entire production? You both read Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article but didn't think it through?
You import $1 billion in oil, and export $500 million in car parts. Your total production is $500 billion. Think about it. It's not hard.

Imports and exports are not all of the production in a country. There are a bunch of goods made and sold within the country.
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Old Yesterday, 11:16 PM
 
1,406 posts, read 719,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
You import $1 billion in oil, and export $500 million in car parts. Your total production is $500 billion. Think about it. It's not hard.

Imports and exports are not all of the production in a country. There are a bunch of goods made and sold within the country.
WRM20, If USA's annual GDP is $19 trillion, and our annual trade deficit is more than a $0.5 trillion, in that year USA in aggregate purchased over 500 Billion dollars more products that we produced.

A GDP of $19 trillion is all the goods and service products USA produced, which includes the costs of all those products we exported less the cost of all those products we imported.

In your simple two transaction example, USA has purchased exactly $500 billion more oil than the cost of car parts USA has produced.

GDP indicates the net value of all the nation's production. Annual trade deficits indicate how much more than the nation actually produced, did they actually purchase.
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