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Old 09-16-2019, 04:48 PM
 
6,616 posts, read 6,621,152 times
Reputation: 3055

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The total wealth of the world is estimated to be $317 trillion. So, I think we will be alright.

https://qz.com/1501511/the-world-gen...n-five-charts/
How much of that is wealth is just someone getting paid back with interest by someone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
You first sentence is simply incorrect. For instance the US govt could spend as much as it wanted to, create money when needed and never default on its debt
The US govt can only print if told to do so by Fed which is a cartel of private bankers.
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:31 PM
 
2,626 posts, read 1,512,752 times
Reputation: 5530
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapdad00 View Post
So would there have been an advantage for the US to not go on the 2 decade spending spree we have been living? Per @Minivan driver's comments, I remember when we had budget surpluses and "W" decided to give the money back to the American people. From a balanced budget perspective, it all snow-balled from there. But was there really any harm in that as the US just joined the rest of the world in a more balanced situation in the debt vs. GDP vs Asset equation?
We had a brief period of a few years around the dot com time where we ran a surplus. Mostly because of the bubble we were in that was not sustainable.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53781

The problem isn't so much the spending spree, it is what it has been spent on.

We have received very poor return for our deficit spending because the stimulus is very poorly targeted. We have a demand problem. Stimulating the top end of the curve already at peak demand doesn't do a damn thing to address the problem. Neither does stuffing the war pig with more money every time it farts. We have pissed away tons of money and have gotten very little in return.

What needs to happen is bottom up stimulus, where potential demand is located and that would spur demand leading to CapEx and other investment. It will also be inflationary although the benefits would still significantly outweigh the negatives.

We also need to address the demographic problem. Either through immigration and or encouraging family units to have more kids. Money (tax credit expansion), making schools year around and opening them up for all ages (impact child care costs and likely help with crime / bad parenting), addressing student loan debt, maybe a debt forgiveness for the middle class and below etc are all things that would juice demand. Not all of them are practical but as we approach the era of no growth or negative growth more and more exotic policies will be required if we just continue to kick the can down the road.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Boston
8,759 posts, read 2,565,190 times
Reputation: 6189
sounds like somebody's got the "vapors."
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
5,016 posts, read 1,943,455 times
Reputation: 9167
That's $100,000 per household of three. And I bet the cheeky buggers in Equatorial Guinea will expect Americans to pay more, on a progressive rate. After we give them $0.08 a year in generous foreign aid, which we also borrowed.
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
3,792 posts, read 1,728,988 times
Reputation: 6438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
I'm not, and never have been, a permabear, a gold bug nor a Fed hater. But I have to say this report that world debt is now at $250 Trillion is sobering:

The $250 Trillion Debt Problem

This quote got my attention: "The sustainability of debt burdens depends on interest rates remaining low and global trade remaining open" I'll just say I wish we had leadership in Washington that's a little more reserved and stable.

It seems we are perched on a teetering knife edge. One small misstep and down we go.
I don't know if teetering is the word I'd use. I'd go for stuck. I think the central bank will have almost no power to raise rates a decade from now. When we look at ownership of companies and assets, they are no longer owned by masters of said trade or industry, but by masters of the mint, who have channeled funds from those hungry for yields, significantly leveraged their resources, and banked on remaining value in underlying assets.

I mean, how do you take two companies as powerful as Heinz and one time Dow component Kraft and screw that up? It's not like their market moved...but in order to get the prize one as disciplined as Warren Buffett had to scramble into debt in order to get sufficient ROI.

Having had no outlet for money destruction for rebuilding and real losses.....no new markets to prop up with new debt outlays....I don't think it will be a shock style thing...at first....just a general malaise. The new investments don't actually sell anything. Data Dog's making their IPO....they are offereing 1% control for the entire class of shares being offered. Woof. The old investments are getting leveraged and bloated....or acquired by someone else willing to get leveraged and bloated.

While there's nothing inherently wrong, all that leverage and bloat does make us less nimble...and companies are so interwoven now. Politics interwoven in personal lives. I would agree it has a long term concerning effect.

In the 30's, it was not the stone age. The Fed had the knowledge of knowing every check that passed through the country. They didn't have the computing power, but in the face of a Depression, they chose to make money supply smaller. Before that, the Panics had the same effect with disastrous results with interesting frequency until before that, Andrew Jackson vs the Fed Precursor saw not just money supply shrink, but an outright calling in of loans across the industrious US.

It is interesting that this issue is even discussed in biblical times. Whether you believe or not, it is fascinating. A 50th year is a year of Jubilee where everyone gets to return to their land and they are only to eat from their own farms. Almost like....good job with the wealth increase....you've had your fun, now give it back.

We do have a problem. With the low rates and lack of monetary damage....it's been like steroids for the issue to grow quickly this past decade. At some point we're going to have to support leaders in government, business and even ourselves to consider taking on less leverage. Giving less control of assets to people whose sole skill is access to markets and investors. There are plenty of groups that will "solve" parts of the issue from a very different and unhelpful perspective if we don't.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:33 AM
 
26,587 posts, read 29,002,987 times
Reputation: 25602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
You first sentence is simply incorrect. For instance the US govt could spend as much as it wanted to, create money when needed and never default on its debt
At some point, you end up making your currency worthless. Just because we've been getting away with money printing for now doesn't me we will forever.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:35 AM
 
26,587 posts, read 29,002,987 times
Reputation: 25602
Quote:
Originally Posted by aridon View Post
No, the problem is growth of debt and lack of economic growth.

Regardless, it is all Fiat and that is what people forget. The entire world is in the same boat and as the ship sinks the entire world will step up into a new boat and the train will continue down the track because that is all there is to do. There is already talk of a world crypto basket for trade. They can do whatever they want, its all funny money. The move to digital currency only makes it easier for the consumer to accept literally anything.
Ultimately, they want a financial collapse so they can have a single digital world currency, but no one will agree to it unless there's a financial crisis. It's easier to control people that way.
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,975 posts, read 10,031,507 times
Reputation: 10182
When it comes to money, a bag of hammers has more brains than the average American.
But it's not their fault. They're victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry that has lied to them from cradle to grave.

Case in point:
A unit dollar is a silver coin, defined in the Coinage Act of 1792. A one ounce gold coin ("double eagle") was equivalent to 20 unit dollars (silver). [Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873 - but only for the federal government.]
A dollar bill is an IOU denominated in dollars. ("Pay to the bearer on demand..."). (see: 12 USC Sec. 411) Except that Congress repudiated redeeming their notes in 1933. (Nope, we're not going to redeem these IOUs).

As to the "Fiat" argument -
....
From wikipedia,
“The term fiat money has been defined variously as: any money declared by a government to be legal tender. State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard. Money without intrinsic value.”
MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace NOTES, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
MONEY does not embrace NOTES. A Federal Reserve Note is therefore NOT FIAT.
It IS legal tender on obligated parties to said note (under the "law of notes" - not money).
"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305
All duly enumerated American socialists cannot object to the tender of the notes that THEY are obligated parties to. (thanks to FICA)

Why is it legal tender for YOU?
...
● CONTRIBUTION - ... The share of a loss payable by an insurer when contracts with two or more insurers cover the same loss... The sharing of loss or payment among several...
--- Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 328
...
Every enumerated "contributor" under FICA (Federal Insurance CONTRIBUTIONS Act) is equally liable for the public debt, making "dollar bills" into legal tender. Hence you cannot object to their tender.

What’s the difference?
IF the “dollar bill” was fiat, then if the U.S. government went totally bust, so would the “dollar bill.” All that one loses is the “face value” of worthless paper.
BUT, if the U.S. government defaults, every enumerated American enrolled in FICA is an obligated party on those “dollar bills.” WHOA. YOU and YOURS are pledged as collateral - at FACE VALUE - in dollars. You. Lose. Everything.
You are pledged as collateral.
Your property is pledged as collateral.
YOUR CHILDREN are pledged as collateral.

Are you getting the picture, now?

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...al-tender.aspx
" Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy."
The site coyly avoids mentioning that FICA is the means by which all YOUR goods and YOUR labor back their worthless IOUs. I can’t recall the constitutional clause that states that Congress has a superior claim upon the labor and property of all Americans - do you?

Remember, no American government can take PRIVATE PROPERTY for public use without paying JUST COMPENSATION. Ergo, no government can arbitrarily claim ALL PRIVATE PROPERTY without incurring an impossible obligation.
OR
There is no more private property - abolished, thanks to FICA.

From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...ist-manifesto/

ABOLISH - to put an end to (from the Latin abolere “destroy”)
ANNIHILATION - utter destruction.
ANNIHILATE - to destroy completely.

❏ Amendment V, US Constitution 1789
❏ ... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

❏ "PRIVATE PROPERTY - As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as BELONGS ABSOLUTELY TO AN INDIVIDUAL, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
❏ - - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217.

WELCOME to the Socialist Paradise of the People’s Democratic Socialist Republic of America. Where we're not limited by pesky constitutions, lawful monies, or other impediments to collectivism. And since it was done by your consent, no harm, no foul.
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Old Today, 08:30 AM
 
2,330 posts, read 703,248 times
Reputation: 3288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron61 View Post
Just as individuals cannot continue to spend more than they make, neither can governments. At some point in the cycle, debt is simply no longer sustainable and the inevitable day of reckoning comes.

Without getting too far along the political path, here in the U.S. the last time we had a budget surplus was in 2001. So for nearly two decades we have been running in the RED. We know a collapse of some magnitude is coming. The question we must ask ourselves is what will our personal response be prior to it?
There is no adequate personal response.

I have ultimately concluded that we must stop fooling ourselves into believing that the game will ever stop. All that will happen is the rules will be rewritten by those who hold the most resources to keep the masses in check.

There is zero appetite for WWIII or any sort of instability.

If the illuminati does NOT exist, an alliance will be created for the sole purpose of keeping the train humming along and getting it back on the tracks should it derail.
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Old Today, 09:38 AM
 
3,727 posts, read 2,290,571 times
Reputation: 2887
You clearly need to go out and get some fresh air.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
When it comes to money, a bag of hammers has more brains than the average American.
But it's not their fault. They're victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry that has lied to them from cradle to grave.

Case in point:
A unit dollar is a silver coin, defined in the Coinage Act of 1792. A one ounce gold coin ("double eagle") was equivalent to 20 unit dollars (silver). [Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873 - but only for the federal government.]
A dollar bill is an IOU denominated in dollars. ("Pay to the bearer on demand..."). (see: 12 USC Sec. 411) Except that Congress repudiated redeeming their notes in 1933. (Nope, we're not going to redeem these IOUs).

As to the "Fiat" argument -
....
From wikipedia,
“The term fiat money has been defined variously as: any money declared by a government to be legal tender. State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard. Money without intrinsic value.”
MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace NOTES, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
MONEY does not embrace NOTES. A Federal Reserve Note is therefore NOT FIAT.
It IS legal tender on obligated parties to said note (under the "law of notes" - not money).
"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305
All duly enumerated American socialists cannot object to the tender of the notes that THEY are obligated parties to. (thanks to FICA)

Why is it legal tender for YOU?
...
● CONTRIBUTION - ... The share of a loss payable by an insurer when contracts with two or more insurers cover the same loss... The sharing of loss or payment among several...
--- Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 328
...
Every enumerated "contributor" under FICA (Federal Insurance CONTRIBUTIONS Act) is equally liable for the public debt, making "dollar bills" into legal tender. Hence you cannot object to their tender.

What’s the difference?
IF the “dollar bill” was fiat, then if the U.S. government went totally bust, so would the “dollar bill.” All that one loses is the “face value” of worthless paper.
BUT, if the U.S. government defaults, every enumerated American enrolled in FICA is an obligated party on those “dollar bills.” WHOA. YOU and YOURS are pledged as collateral - at FACE VALUE - in dollars. You. Lose. Everything.
You are pledged as collateral.
Your property is pledged as collateral.
YOUR CHILDREN are pledged as collateral.

Are you getting the picture, now?

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...al-tender.aspx
" Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy."
The site coyly avoids mentioning that FICA is the means by which all YOUR goods and YOUR labor back their worthless IOUs. I can’t recall the constitutional clause that states that Congress has a superior claim upon the labor and property of all Americans - do you?

Remember, no American government can take PRIVATE PROPERTY for public use without paying JUST COMPENSATION. Ergo, no government can arbitrarily claim ALL PRIVATE PROPERTY without incurring an impossible obligation.
OR
There is no more private property - abolished, thanks to FICA.

From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...ist-manifesto/

ABOLISH - to put an end to (from the Latin abolere “destroy”)
ANNIHILATION - utter destruction.
ANNIHILATE - to destroy completely.

❏ Amendment V, US Constitution 1789
❏ ... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

❏ "PRIVATE PROPERTY - As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as BELONGS ABSOLUTELY TO AN INDIVIDUAL, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
❏ - - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217.

WELCOME to the Socialist Paradise of the People’s Democratic Socialist Republic of America. Where we're not limited by pesky constitutions, lawful monies, or other impediments to collectivism. And since it was done by your consent, no harm, no foul.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
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