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Old 08-20-2020, 11:20 AM
 
16,182 posts, read 14,685,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
We used to import a LOT more. Solar and wind have been a huge success in California for making our state less dependent on natural gas and electric power from other states. California has tons of sunshine, it is common sense that we use it to make home-grown power.

So we had ONE DAY of rolling blackouts in a few areas that didn't last very long. That's a sign of a system in transition with growing pains, not a large-scale systemic failure.


One day of rolling blackouts. The higest number of significant outages of any state by far - by almost a factor of 3 over Texas........keep in mind Texas produces significantly more power. And of course CA has among the higest retail prices in the country. All that while underpoducing by not quite 1/3. What's not to love about all that?

A cherry on top is that much of CA also has pervasive dirty power problems (deviation from 60hz.).
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Old 08-20-2020, 11:22 AM
 
16,182 posts, read 14,685,886 times
Reputation: 14600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
We used to import a LOT more. Solar and wind have been a huge success in California for making our state less dependent on natural gas and electric power from other states. California has tons of sunshine, it is common sense that we use it to make home-grown power.

So we had ONE DAY of rolling blackouts in a few areas that didn't last very long. That's a sign of a system in transition with growing pains, not a large-scale systemic failure.
I can't look it up now but I beleive your first claim is incorrect.
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Old 08-20-2020, 12:03 PM
 
10,521 posts, read 4,576,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I can't look it up now but I beleive your first claim is incorrect.
I'll save you the trouble. Before solar California electricity mostly came from imported natural gas and imported hydro power from the northwest. California used to generate a lot of natural gas but by 1990 those fields were mostly played out. Some homegrown power came from nukes and hydro as well.

It's not a debatable point: the solar and wind buildout in California decreased our dependence on imports significantly. We are still too dependent on imports but the state is headed in the right direction and dependence will slowly decrease.

The only thing that is debatable is to what degree has reliability been reduced with the current system. In the pre-solar days, when we were the most dependent on imports, reliability was only as good as the outside producer's ability or desire to deliver. We were ripe to be taken advantage of and that's exactly what Enron did.

Once we achieve solar, wind and storage buildout reliability will increase and dependence on imports will decrease.
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Old 08-20-2020, 01:09 PM
 
16,182 posts, read 14,685,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
I'll save you the trouble. Before solar California electricity mostly came from imported natural gas and imported hydro power from the northwest. California used to generate a lot of natural gas but by 1990 those fields were mostly played out. Some homegrown power came from nukes and hydro as well.

It's not a debatable point: the solar and wind buildout in California decreased our dependence on imports significantly. We are still too dependent on imports but the state is headed in the right direction and dependence will slowly decrease.

The only thing that is debatable is to what degree has reliability been reduced with the current system. In the pre-solar days, when we were the most dependent on imports, reliability was only as good as the outside producer's ability or desire to deliver. We were ripe to be taken advantage of and that's exactly what Enron did.

Once we achieve solar, wind and storage buildout reliability will increase and dependence on imports will decrease.
No. I was right. In 2006 CA imported 64,926 GWh - 2010....85,392 GWh - 2019....90,648 GWh. And over that time overall usage decreased so the proportion of imported power has significantly increased. So from a longer-term-trend perspective your state's dependence on imported power has increased there is no counter agrument.
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Old 08-20-2020, 02:28 PM
 
10,521 posts, read 4,576,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
No. I was right. In 2006 CA imported 64,926 GWh - 2010....85,392 GWh - 2019....90,648 GWh. And over that time overall usage decreased so the proportion of imported power has significantly increased. So from a longer-term-trend perspective your state's dependence on imported power has increased there is no counter agrument.
Incorrect. You are only looking at imported electricity. To correctly determine energy import one must also consider imported natural gas used to generate electricity in the state:

2001 973,327 mil cu ft
2019 578,056

Virtually all of it imported from out of state. That's a 41% drop in reliance on imported gas for electricity production.

The 90,648 GWh of imported electricity is only 31% of the total 285,488 GWh for that year, which is less than "California's non CO2 emitting electric generation categories (nuclear, large hydroelectric, and renewables) accounted for 53 percent of its generation" [source: Calif Dept of Energy]

The numbers are clear, California's push for renewables is making us significantly less reliant on imported energy sources.
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Old 08-20-2020, 02:44 PM
 
16,182 posts, read 14,685,886 times
Reputation: 14600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Incorrect. You are only looking at imported electricity. To correctly determine energy import one must also consider imported natural gas used to generate electricity in the state:

2001 973,327 mil cu ft
2019 578,056

Virtually all of it imported from out of state. That's a 41% drop in reliance on imported gas for electricity production.

The 90,648 GWh of imported electricity is only 31% of the total 285,488 GWh for that year, which is less than "California's non CO2 emitting electric generation categories (nuclear, large hydroelectric, and renewables) accounted for 53 percent of its generation" [source: Calif Dept of Energy]

The numbers are clear, California's push for renewables is making us significantly less reliant on imported energy sources.
Good grief man I was specifically talking about CA imported electrical power.
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:00 PM
 
Location: plano
7,880 posts, read 10,542,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Good grief man I was specifically talking about CA imported electrical power.
The CA governor agrees with you LOL

He stated CA did not plan for backup needs when it was cloudy or the wind didnt blow or as you pointed out peek needs around 5pm is not when the solar is producing the peak electric needed at the peak consumption time frame.

So CA assumed others would take care of their electricity import needs with non CA production? Did they alert the sources so they can plan and invest if needed to produce more electricity for CA needs? I doubt it.

I wonder what fuel is being used to produce more electricity to send to ca now? Surely its natural gas a clean fuel not coal.
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
5,631 posts, read 2,163,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
We used to import a LOT more. Solar and wind have been a huge success in California for making our state less dependent on natural gas and electric power from other states. California has tons of sunshine, it is common sense that we use it to make home-grown power.

So we had ONE DAY of rolling blackouts in a few areas that didn't last very long. That's a sign of a system in transition with growing pains, not a large-scale systemic failure.
In what way is it not a large scale systemic failure when there is not enough surge capacity to cover the state and need to have other areas cover CA needs. This is just exporting the capacity to where the plants can be built without CA onerous regulations and high costs. CA won't build gas powered generation due to green initiatives but is Ok with using the gas generator electricity from other states - what hypocrites.

BTW - The reason given for the blackout was loss of 1,000 MW of wind generation capacity - part of the issue when use sources that are based on environmental factors that can't be controlled. Couple this with lack of backup capacity when things like this occur and this will not be occasional occurrence . Energy storage is good to move the peak a couple of hours, not cover outages that are longer in duration. CA is the ONLY state that has had to resort to blackouts due to capacity issues.

Also as to the issue of generating from imported sources on your other post - Natural Gas is not imported - CA and the US are net exporters of Natural gas.

Look at it this way - CA qualifies as a developing country as far as electric capacity is concerned, where electricity generation capacity is overregulated, underfunded, underbuilt and infrastructure is poorly managed. A perfect example is PG&E last year.

Last edited by ddeemo; 08-20-2020 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:43 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,064,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
One day of rolling blackouts. The higest number of significant outages of any state by far - by almost a factor of 3 over Texas........keep in mind Texas produces significantly more power. And of course CA has among the higest retail prices in the country. All that while underpoducing by not quite 1/3. What's not to love about all that?
You are probably heading towards outdated quickly on much of this.

2020 California Building Code requires Solar PV for all new homes. The path they are on will saturate the daytime (Solar) market -- and they will likely wind up exporting towards THIS direction.

All they have to do is tilt a big chunk of arrays towards the West, and they own the afternoon / evening power generation for the Western half of the US -- including Texas. They can run to 5 pm or later, which is 7 pm here (Texas). Do you know much about HVDC?

I follow you are still on the Gas / Oil side of things, but California is actively choosing to move past that.

"Burning Stuff" will likely still be around for awhile, but like horses . . . but not used for much besides campfires.

It is out of my SME area -- but I think California is even banning gas connections to some buildings to end Gas Heat.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-14931617.php

Quote:

A cherry on top is that much of CA also has pervasive dirty power problems (deviation from 60hz.).
There is a link below to get you up to speed on the larger concepts of High Voltage DC (which is 0 Hz)

0 Hz works fine from any source.

And on the AC side of things -- Solar PV inverters make perfect 60 Hz with 0 Power Factor (Unity). Few to none rotating generation systems can do that without some extreme (expensive) control systems. Solar PV inverters make such quality 60 Hz, they compare themselves to the grid to determine if there is a Grid Problem for automatic disconnect.

This link should jump you up to where things are heading as the Renewable Grid Tie systems continue to build out.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the...bal-power-grid

My own look-ahead for your area of interest -- Gas will likely be the choice of Back-up and Emergency systems, and then fade away for General Purpose Generation after Coal and Nukes. EIA cannot really say that, yet -- bad politics.
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Old 08-20-2020, 04:31 PM
 
16,182 posts, read 14,685,886 times
Reputation: 14600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
You are probably heading towards outdated quickly on much of this.

2020 California Building Code requires Solar PV for all new homes. The path they are on will saturate the daytime (Solar) market -- and they will likely wind up exporting towards THIS direction.

All they have to do is tilt a big chunk of arrays towards the West, and they own the afternoon / evening power generation for the Western half of the US -- including Texas. They can run to 5 pm or later, which is 7 pm here (Texas). Do you know much about HVDC?

I follow you are still on the Gas / Oil side of things, but California is actively choosing to move past that.

"Burning Stuff" will likely still be around for awhile, but like horses . . . but not used for much besides campfires.

It is out of my SME area -- but I think California is even banning gas connections to some buildings to end Gas Heat.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...n-14931617.php



There is a link below to get you up to speed on the larger concepts of High Voltage DC (which is 0 Hz)

0 Hz works fine from any source.

And on the AC side of things -- Solar PV inverters make perfect 60 Hz with 0 Power Factor (Unity). Few to none rotating generation systems can do that without some extreme (expensive) control systems. Solar PV inverters make such quality 60 Hz, they compare themselves to the grid to determine if there is a Grid Problem for automatic disconnect.

This link should jump you up to where things are heading as the Renewable Grid Tie systems continue to build out.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the...bal-power-grid

My own look-ahead for your area of interest -- Gas will likely be the choice of Back-up and Emergency systems, and then fade away for General Purpose Generation after Coal and Nukes. EIA cannot really say that, yet -- bad politics.


I'm not an engineer but I understand AC vs. DC and power well enough. As a power guy you know perfectly well that a distorted waveform along incoming AC power is suboptimal for all sorts of reasons and you also know that the vagaries of large scale solar and wind cuase a good bit of that. A distorted waveform is inefficient from generation and supply perspectives, causes wear and damamge to some AC devices, sensitivie equipment - some microscopes, some medical equipemnt etc. require nearly perfect power.

So far as small scale solar systems I own several....I use them for water pumping and gates on remote ranchland, one of my boats and two jet skis are on solar powered 12 and 24v lifts and chargeres. I got into this because I'm an audio junkie and the easiest way to get more or less perfect power is from batteries - 0 hz as you say - and an easy way to charge batteries is with solar cells and regualtors.

Next time you are in CA grab something with a torodial transformer, not that easy I understand, and plug it in. Odds are most anywhere in the state the transformer will hum and buzz audibly from DC offset and other nasties along the waveform. I have audio equipement (most especailly an old Adcom GFP-750 pre-amp, oddly enough designed by a CA guy named Nelson Pass who turned me on to solar generation) I literally could not use in our SF home or my friend's place in Pacific Grove that works perfectly in Dallas.

I'm not behind you are trying to leapfrog what is.


No glasses sorry for the typos.
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