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Old 09-09-2020, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
25,015 posts, read 14,396,039 times
Reputation: 14366

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeemo View Post
If you want to debate an issue, don't start by calling people ignorant and characterize behavior as ranting - shows very poor understanding of your audience.

You also picked 2 trades, plumbers and electricians, that do not require going to vocational schools, most start through an apprentice program. Plumber and electrician trades are regulated by the state through an apprentice, journeyman, master structure - the plumbers and electrician unions control the apprenticeships which limits how many enter the profession by controlling the licensing process. Your arguments about overcapacity do not apply - different means but similar to how medical school admissions controls the number of licensed DRs, preventing overcapacity.

I think you missed a major point - many would be better served by vocational training than an expensive degree in something like your example of "Feminist Dance Theory" - vocational training is much more relevant to getting a job that pays well than an arts related degree that does not translate into a profession with a solid career associated.
you'd generally think the OP was some youngish person, but alas they've said their children are grown and gone.

We can attempt to discuss with them, and I'm willing to try, but you'll find the style in their OP is par for the course.

The first question would be - what would he do about the ~50% of folks who go to college but never get a degree? Sure, some % of them dropped out for a career path, but what % would that be? 1/2 of them?
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:14 AM
 
16,338 posts, read 14,790,461 times
Reputation: 14726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRunner View Post
I’ve never seen anyone in education advocate for more plumbers or electricians. The push is for education in trades such as these to be more accessible. We currently have very limited track, especially in math, where everyone Takes Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and maybe Pre-Cal and Calculus. When you look at how many people in society actually need these courses, maybe our education system is not offering classes that are useful to the majority of students.

The idea is to give that future welder, electrician, plumber, etc. classes that are useful when they are in school instead of solving quadratic equations and analyzing texts of Beowulf. It has nothing to do with increasing the amount of plumbers.

I actually haven’t heard of this being done in college as there are already trade schools when you finish high school. The idea is to restructure high school to better fit the needs of the students.
100%. The OP is foisting yet another false narrative.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
19,621 posts, read 21,811,472 times
Reputation: 16991
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRunner View Post
I’ve never seen anyone in education advocate for more plumbers or electricians. The push is for education in trades such as these to be more accessible. We currently have very limited track, especially in math, where everyone Takes Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and maybe Pre-Cal and Calculus. When you look at how many people in society actually need these courses, maybe our education system is not offering classes that are useful to the majority of students.

The idea is to give that future welder, electrician, plumber, etc. classes that are useful when they are in school instead of solving quadratic equations and analyzing texts of Beowulf. It has nothing to do with increasing the amount of plumbers.

I actually haven’t heard of this being done in college as there are already trade schools when you finish high school. The idea is to restructure high school to better fit the needs of the students.
It's talking about college, not high school. Sure, there's lot's of classes that aren't relevant to plumbing or diesel mechanics throughout education. Those are all junior high/high school level math. I don't think we should be turning high school into plumber and cable installer school, but there should be at least some more vocational classes available. The obvious are your old ones that increasingly aren't offered... woodworking, auto shop, welding. They're not trying to be training programs for carpenters or mechanics or welders but they provide some exposure to them. Then you have the entire new field of vocational classes that mostly are entirely ignored. There should be some intro to networking, SQL, programming. Again, you're not going to become a network architect or data base administrator because you took an SQL class in high school. You're just going to get some exposure to it.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:22 AM
 
208 posts, read 83,487 times
Reputation: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
First of all, it's not about choosing trade over college in such a simplistic way as you're making out. Many of the people in trades were never thinking of college. My fiancé wouldn't be better off today had he gone to college, because he was never a good student or had talents for the kind of fields that pay well with a degree. But having a trade enabled him to start his own business, which has been successful for 30 years. In Ocean City, some of the biggest beachfront houses being to people who own electrician, plumbing, contracting businesses. And some people are not sit at a desk people, they like to use their hands. My fiancé gets a lot of satisfaction and pride at the end of a job (tile installation) seeing how well it came out.

Who is glorifying anything? Since when is saying we should have more vocational training equal to glorifying? It's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think? Why do you think we are better off with fewer choices? I really don't get that.

You don't really believe an English major, Psychology major, etc make more than a general contractor, do you??
" In Ocean City, some of the biggest beachfront houses being to people who OWN electrician, plumbing, contracting businesses."

What does being an owner of a business have to do with being a tradesman? I'm sure an owner of a McDonalds also has a bigger house then the person flipping burgers. Whats your point? The vast majority of tradesmen who try to start their own businesses lose everything. This is a common example of people going out of their way to mislead and glorify the trades by throwing out unrealistic examples that represent less than 1% of the "tradesmen".

Who is glorifying anything you ask? The media and most people on this forum. You can search the threads yourself.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:24 AM
 
15,942 posts, read 12,739,138 times
Reputation: 9768
After doing some research, turns out what controls the number of licensed doctors is the amount of residency programs at hospital.

I get that. Can only fit so many. But here is the kicker. My company has rented many apartments to incoming doctors/residences at local hospital. From what I gather, they work these guys to death. They work incredibly long hours, criminally insane hours.

Why make them do this instead of cutting hours in half, and letting in different candidates cover those hours? You can therefore increase the number of incoming residences you graduate by 2x. And by not overworking each doctor, you get more quality/hour out of each one. I think that be more important than testing the incoming residences durability and perserverance.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:28 AM
 
Location: NYC
20,552 posts, read 15,687,653 times
Reputation: 25616
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
... because they have started from scratch with current generation gear.
We had a similar issue in the wake of WW2 with Europe, Japan, etc. vs our PRE war industrial base.
No, they have a different work mentality. It's isn't about infrastructure, gear, or investments. America has a ton of capital but it's often spent on pork. The elites in this country is ruining everything, they pay themselves first and not take care of people below. Everybody in America is trying to kick the can down and trying to figure out new scams to make the most money with the least amount of effort.

In China, people work to rebuild or massive movement to push the country forward. The country doesn't have massive racial issues. Both men and women work often side by side. While a lot of men here were busy trying to mate with as many women as they can while working. Over there they are pushing to modernize and progress to the next stage. All we do as Americans is use that envy and turning it into a hate. They will move past us because collectively they are more closer to full employment than America. We have something abroad as 40% of Americans not participating in work. There's more Chinese coming to America as tourists now than becoming illegal residents because why come to America and work for peanuts and have high living costs while in China the opportunities are much greater. If you can work, there's always a job in China. In America, not quite. You may want to work but not everyone is employable, there's a lot of discretion when it comes to hiring in America. You maybe too old, not the right demographics, or fit to be hired for many jobs here. Because it's harder to fire. But in China, people get hired easily and also fired easily. However it creates less friction for employers and employees to move from job to job.

We can't progress as a society until we deregulate and solve our racial issues and that's a double edge sword.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:29 AM
 
16,338 posts, read 14,790,461 times
Reputation: 14726
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
It is criminal that they limit the number of medical specialists. Let each pre med choose whether they think it is worth it or not. How are they even able to do this legally?
Medicare to a great degree controls the numbers of medical residencies in The US.

1). Unless you want more poorly qualified specialits....it works like this without much noise. Those who perform better in medical school - grades, research, STEP 1, 2, scores etc. are seleted into the most in demand specalties. I'll post a bit later that shows per specialty Step 1 scores......it's an eye opener.

The math of this is simple. Very few college students are qualified to get into medical school in the first place. Only a subset of that group are qualfiied to win one of the limited residency slots within any specialty.


2). Neurology per se is it's own animal. Among the specialties neuro. tends to not pay particularly well because neurologists perfrom few proceedures and until recently were not often involved in surgical teams.

3). Financially, NY/NJ are horrible locations for clinical specialists. Nominal pay lags most parts of the country, malpractice insurance is very high, the lawsuit/defensive medicine burdens are high and of course state and local tax burdens on those earning specialist money are right at the highest in the country etc.

4). Among the results of the above is a specialist shortage across much of MY, MA, NJ, CT etc. Yielding long wait times.

Last edited by EDS_; 09-09-2020 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:29 AM
 
44,425 posts, read 30,067,143 times
Reputation: 71463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
It's talking about college, not high school. Sure, there's lot's of classes that aren't relevant to plumbing or diesel mechanics throughout education. Those are all junior high/high school level math. I don't think we should be turning high school into plumber and cable installer school, but there should be at least some more vocational classes available. The obvious are your old ones that increasingly aren't offered... woodworking, auto shop, welding. They're not trying to be training programs for carpenters or mechanics or welders but they provide some exposure to them. Then you have the entire new field of vocational classes that mostly are entirely ignored. There should be some intro to networking, SQL, programming. Again, you're not going to become a network architect or data base administrator because you took an SQL class in high school. You're just going to get some exposure to it.
Actually I saw a show about a vocational high school in San Diego that had some kind of computer-aided drafting (I don't remember exactly what it was, I saw it a long time ago). The kids were graduating from the 4 year program (vocational high schools are not just a few classes here and there, they are designed to prepare you to walk into a job or apprentice position whether hair dressing, chef, auto body, etc) right into $50,000 a year starting salaries.

And now they offer this:

"A collaboration between the California Department of Education and the California Labor Federation, the new academies offer three-year pre-apprenticeships in high school. The programs are designed to accelerate training and entry into high-paying union trades including electrical workers, carpenters, plumber and pipe-fitters."

As I said, my nephew couldn't even get into our county's vo-tech high school because demand was so high. We absolutely need more. Not every kid should or needs to go to college, especially if they're not in the group with talent for math or science. He was never college material so joined the Marines, and now that he's out he works gig jobs, Amazon delivery, etc. A program like above would have been a Godsend for him.

I just can't wrap my head around the wisdom that reducing choices is better for anyone.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:37 AM
 
44,425 posts, read 30,067,143 times
Reputation: 71463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durpie View Post
" In Ocean City, some of the biggest beachfront houses being to people who OWN electrician, plumbing, contracting businesses."

What does being an owner of a business have to do with being a tradesman? I'm sure an owner of a McDonalds also has a bigger house then the person flipping burgers. Whats your point? The vast majority of tradesmen who try to start their own businesses lose everything. This is a common example of people going out of their way to mislead and glorify the trades by throwing out unrealistic examples that represent less than 1% of the "tradesmen".

Who is glorifying anything you ask? The media and most people on this forum. You can search the threads yourself.
Excelling at a trade makes it an easy entree into starting your own business. It is very different than owning a McDonalds, which requires hundreds of thousands of dollars for the franchise. All you need to do as a tradesman is start an LLC and have a good reputation. Where's your link to this 'fact" that the majority of tradesmen who go into business fail?? Where is your link that says less than 1% of tradesmen own their business?

Even without owning though, tradespeople are going to make decent money, without debt. If you're in NJ, there's a 4-6 week wait for tree trimming services due to the storms, those guys are making money hand over fist, owners as well as workers.

You still haven't offered any kind of logical reason why having less choices for a career is better than more.
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Old 09-09-2020, 11:39 AM
 
16,338 posts, read 14,790,461 times
Reputation: 14726
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
No, they have a different work mentality. It's isn't about infrastructure, gear, or investments. America has a ton of capital but it's often spent on pork. The elites in this country is ruining everything, they pay themselves first and not take care of people below. Everybody in America is trying to kick the can down and trying to figure out new scams to make the most money with the least amount of effort.

In China, people work to rebuild or massive movement to push the country forward. The country doesn't have massive racial issues. Both men and women work often side by side. While a lot of men here were busy trying to mate with as many women as they can while working. Over there they are pushing to modernize and progress to the next stage. All we do as Americans is use that envy and turning it into a hate. They will move past us because collectively they are more closer to full employment than America. We have something abroad as 40% of Americans not participating in work. There's more Chinese coming to America as tourists now than becoming illegal residents because why come to America and work for peanuts and have high living costs while in China the opportunities are much greater. If you can work, there's always a job in China. In America, not quite. You may want to work but not everyone is employable, there's a lot of discretion when it comes to hiring in America. You maybe too old, not the right demographics, or fit to be hired for many jobs here. Because it's harder to fire. But in China, people get hired easily and also fired easily. However it creates less friction for employers and employees to move from job to job.

We can't progress as a society until we deregulate and solve our racial issues and that's a double edge sword.
China has horrendous racial/cultural/religious issues.
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