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Funny because the very action of buying and selling a home for profit is the most direct reason prices in the market are so high. That is why more and more people had to take risks, and why lending practices were lowered. So the house flipping goons could keep flippin. People were jumping in to homes left and right because prices were sky rocketing. Its not rocket science. And anyone that tries to shift the blame away from house flippers is an IDIOT. Plenty of people made mistakes buying homes and this and that, but the FACT is the economy is crap, and homes are, and were overpriced because people are selling them for as much as they could possibly get someone to pay. Its NO different than oil companies charing as much as they can get from people. GREED is spot on. Greed from every angle, from millions of investors and real estate agents living fat from exploiting everyone else.
Its plain to see its already started back up again. Its compulsory for these people because they learned they could get rich by buying a small home, and then reselling, over and over until they could finally buy a home in cash or invest in commercial property. It isn't rocket science you greedy dopes. Many people just wanted a home quickly because you people were making the costs soar in to the stratosphere. So they thought they better buy, or they would never be able to. Now you want to blame them for your peoples very own actions of creating a very high risk, unstable, and expensive market that hit every middle class family right in the mouth while you got fat in the pocket and took vacations at seven different properties. Don't try to get technical about it. Real estate agents, and investors are greedy crooks flat out. Their profession is as crooked as any. They sell by maxing out prices all the time, and making profits. Things aren't sold by worth value, they're basically auctioned off to whoever is desperate enough to pay whatever they can get for it. Don't even get me started on stock holders either. If people used the same business practice that investors and real estate agents do, the entire world would be poor and flat broke while a small few became super rich.
/golfclap
You managed to find an area of the economy to exploit every penny out of and get rich quick. Now go fight over the crumbs and start over.
Last edited by the_pines; 07-11-2008 at 12:41 PM..
Funny because the very action of buying and selling a home for profit is the most direct reason prices in the market are so high. That is why more and more people had to take risks, and why lending practices were lowered. So the house flipping goons could keep flippin. People were jumping in to homes left and right because prices were sky rocketing. Its not rocket science. And anyone that tries to shift the blame away from house flippers is an IDIOT. Plenty of people made mistakes buying homes and this and that, but the FACT is the economy is crap, and homes are, and were overpriced because people are selling them for as much as they could possibly get someone to pay. Its NO different than oil companies charing as much as they can get from people. GREED is spot on. Greed from every angle, from millions of investors and real estate agents living fat from exploiting everyone else.
Its plain to see its already started back up again. Its compulsory for these people because they learned they could get rich by buying a small home, and then reselling, over and over until they could finally buy a home in cash or invest in commercial property. It isn't rocket science you greedy dopes. Many people just wanted a home quickly because you people were making the costs soar in to the stratosphere. So they thought they better buy, or they would never be able to. Now you want to blame them for your peoples very own actions of creating a very high risk, unstable, and expensive market that hit every middle class family right in the mouth while you got fat in the pocket and took vacations at seven different properties. Don't try to get technical about it. Real estate agents, and investors are greedy crooks flat out. Their profession is as crooked as any. They sell by maxing out prices all the time, and making profits. Things aren't sold by worth value, they're basically auctioned off to whoever is desperate enough to pay whatever they can get for it. Don't even get me started on stock holders either. If people used the same business practice that investors and real estate agents do, the entire world would be poor and flat broke while a small few became super rich.
/golfclap
So if people invest in a smart way and buy a home and can sell it with a proift, you call that greed...I call that freedom! If you don't like that than you should try and live in a communist country. If people try it and they fail they have to take the consiquences, that is how the market should work.
If you work for a boss, don't you try to get a promotion and a raise. Most people would like that and aren't working to get less or work as hard and end up geting the same when the prices rise. So do investors and they take risks...that isn't called greed. Gred is when you do it with other peoples money and can't afford it and that is why so many people are in trouble right now and have to try to fix it them self, maybe some help but IMo not from the governement, just help with advise what the smart thing is to get out of their financial trouble, maybe by selling their home or by refinancing their mortgage.
I worked hard and have rented in the past and bought a small house, sold it and bought a bigger house without having a mortgage! Than I sold the house with a profit and bought a bigger house....rented it out for a couple of years and moved to the USA and rented a small appartment for our whole family and saved money to buy our first house here, without a mortgage....sold our house over seas with a huge profit and bought more houses here (all cash) and sold it with a profit...all my own money...when the market went down i had a down payment on a new construction and since IMO it really was starting to look bad, I walked away and lost just a little bit of money instead of going forward with the closing and losing so much money. The house was sold a little bit later for $ 70 K less than I had to pay. I had asked the builder to give me the same incentive as they were willing to give the other people who were signing new contracts, and they said "no"...so they took a bigger loss, because they didn't expect me to walk away....by the way the new owner is now in foreclosure and even as a short sale it is listed for almost half that I would have paid....
Is that brilliant or what...no IMO it is just using your brains....the other properties I own are all paid cash and rented out and I recently bought a short sale for a very low price.....
All because I never wasted much money and saved and rented until I could afford it.
By the way I don't think people who have a normal fixed 30 years mortgage for a house price they can afford with their salery, is a gamble. Most people do it that way and it is just a small percentage that is in trouble, but the effects are felt by many since these people left their homes in distress and sitting at home and whine and blame others and stop maintaining their yards and demage their property.....If they would be smart they would maintain their properties and try to do a short sale to do some damage control...be active.
I'm a foreigner and I had a realtor who told me I was stupid to use my own moeny and was trying to get me a mortgage through a befriended mortgage broker....an ARM that started at 11% ...because I'm a foreigner they said...and it was such a great deal....for whom a great deal...the mortgage broker who would get commision, the realtor who would get a refferal fee or a huge giftcard, if a fee isn't allowed to be taken....by the way this realtor has 2 houses in foreclosure herself......smart adviser!!!! Don't trust any one, I almost did but we trusted ourselfs more.
Well I'm an American and do hope to be as smart as you one day. Sounds like you have a bit of money to play with the market. Congrats to you! But I know plenty of foreigers who have mortgages. And I have since come to know plenty of smart Americans as they feel abliged to tell me how stupid I was and how I deserve what I have gotton on every turn! As a matter of fact I have read so much on the market now that I know even a fixed loan is a great gamble. One stroke or heart attack, flood, or job lose away from bad credit and loss of money invested. Life is risky, you can't forsee everything. Is an ARM riskier than a fixed, no duh. Is owning your own company more of a risk than working for someone, um, maybe unless you take your life into your own hands your never safe from others. Layoffs, illness, etc. Is trading with other countries risky? Is not knowing how to fix everything yourself risky? I mean I could go on and on. Honesty is not really a norm here in America. I don't know where your from but here people make a buck off ignorance at every turn. It's just good business! Even our government is into this. I don't know how anyone feels totally secure. You try your best and your best changes depending on new information you aquire. But don't fool your self about who's at risk in this country. If you had the knowledge in this area you would say there is risk in everything you do. Life is about risk. We have a stock market for those who play with risk. We risk lives in war, we risk lives living in dangerous weather, you can't live with out it. But you can get smart about it. And be willing to take it for what you want. You might loose you might win but winning doesn't make you smarter it just makes you luckier.
You can pick what risks you take and you can pick how you feel about them but you still are taking the risk. Your job is a risk, having kids is a risk, marriage, what you eat, drink, smoke, breath, the doctor you pick, the place you pick to eat. You are trusting it all. And with trust there is risk!
I trusted I could refi and the market wouldn't crash and the economy. I trusted it would be normal or the same as it was 2 years prior. A friend of mine trusted the doctor would do a good operation on her. He left a behind in her body, she was wrong on that one and died from infection. People trust the risks they take will work out in their favor all the time. They don't always do they?
This could go on forever really. I could analyse your life and point out all the risks you take everyday. And tell you I didn't take that one so I am smarter than you. But that would be self serving on my part and I don't think it changes the fact that we all take these risks. You can't be afraid of everything. You learn from mistakes. I have in the housing area. Just leave it at that. You will learn your own. We all do, no one is exempt from this. My whole point is people don't need to boost themselves up on the backs of people who made mistakes. It shouldn't make any difference how YOU feel about yourself. My mistake doesn't cost you anymore than yours cost me. It all evens out in the end. I pay taxes and higher insurance for everybodies mistakes as well. We are a tree whether you like it or not. It's always been dominos my friend. We all fall together and that is a fact.
The 'loose' lending/mortgage practices did work fine...for a while. There was no problem till the market/economic downturn hit, taking jobs, budgets, investment income, and equity with it. I think lenders knew that a bubble was building, yet who knew for certain how long it might last. A year? A decade? No crystal balls there. So i feel that the practices were appropriate for the times and that set of existing conditions. The problem being that they don't work well at all in today's changed economic environment.
On homebuyers...See above. They, too, had no crystal ball. I believe that most did have a plan, that plan was shredded by the current economic upheaval. Yes, i agree that many of today's troubled homebuyers shoulda/coulda left more margin, too many went to the max of their ability to repay and left little or no room at all for the possibility of reduced income and increased expenses. The perfect storm in short. They saw and acted on the opportunity they perceived, yet failed to anticipate the risk.
Serious and in-depth Financial/Investment education should really be required in our schools. Thankfully i had frugal parents that taught and practiced financial responsibility. And i was a very good learner.
likewise overeating works fine for a while. many people use recreational pharmaceuticals for a while without problem. people abuse alcohol for a while and that works fine. yes, you can be irresponsible for a while without paying the price but that doesn't make it less irresponsible. at some point you have to lie in the bed you made
bentlebee I don't really give a crap for any of the technicalities you can throw out there. Your analogy about getting a raise if whack too. Raises don't affect the next person negatively each time. You can also get raises without exploiting other people. I'm not saying everyone who sells property is a goon, but 99% of them just are.
You've told people hey, take one of the most needed commodities in the world, and sell it and you can screw people over badly and get rich. Its a pyramid scheme or some crap. Home prices multiply each time they exchange hands. WHO does that affect? It affects everyone who has yet to buy a home. It wasn't a problem as much before, because there was more room, jobs were much more prevalent and secure, and not near as many people were buying ad selling so quickly. Now not only has job integrity declined a ton, but pay has fallen in many cases, not risen like the prices of everything else around us.
Most people did not consider getting rich off of buying and selling residential homes because it wouldn't have been thought highly off, and people would have been aware of those peoples character back in the day when things were more stable. Just like used car salesmen that try to sell broken cars to people in need.
For those of you blaming the lenders for loosening standards....remember, Jesse Jackson led a big push against these guys for having too tight of lending standards a while back.
Some people tightened their belt, ate sack lunches etc. and were able to buy and KEEP thier home...but you are hearing about the ones that didn't or ones that CAN make the payments but walked away due to being upside down.
So, this is America...I'd rather have people fail or succeed based upon their own initiative than have the government come in and tightly dictate the loans. Personal Freedom means Personal Responsibility...you can't have just 1.
For those that lost thier homes because of layoffs, illness and other bad luck I have great sympathy but this is a smaller group out of the total. Most lost their homes due to over extending themselves or just walking away from the upside down home.
And that's life. This is my point. It's happening in every area of peoples lives all the time. You live and you learn. Just because your not learning this lesson this way doesn't mean you won't another.
Funny because the very action of buying and selling a home for profit is the most direct reason prices in the market are so high. That is why more and more people had to take risks, and why lending practices were lowered. So the house flipping goons could keep flippin. People were jumping in to homes left and right because prices were sky rocketing. Its not rocket science. And anyone that tries to shift the blame away from house flippers is an IDIOT. Plenty of people made mistakes buying homes and this and that, but the FACT is the economy is crap, and homes are, and were overpriced because people are selling them for as much as they could possibly get someone to pay. Its NO different than oil companies charing as much as they can get from people. GREED is spot on. Greed from every angle, from millions of investors and real estate agents living fat from exploiting everyone else.
Its plain to see its already started back up again. Its compulsory for these people because they learned they could get rich by buying a small home, and then reselling, over and over until they could finally buy a home in cash or invest in commercial property. It isn't rocket science you greedy dopes. Many people just wanted a home quickly because you people were making the costs soar in to the stratosphere. So they thought they better buy, or they would never be able to. Now you want to blame them for your peoples very own actions of creating a very high risk, unstable, and expensive market that hit every middle class family right in the mouth while you got fat in the pocket and took vacations at seven different properties. Don't try to get technical about it. Real estate agents, and investors are greedy crooks flat out. Their profession is as crooked as any. They sell by maxing out prices all the time, and making profits. Things aren't sold by worth value, they're basically auctioned off to whoever is desperate enough to pay whatever they can get for it. Don't even get me started on stock holders either. If people used the same business practice that investors and real estate agents do, the entire world would be poor and flat broke while a small few became super rich.
/golfclap
You managed to find an area of the economy to exploit every penny out of and get rich quick. Now go fight over the crumbs and start over.
You are so dead on!!!! I just saw on the news as I was typing there is no shortage of oil, that there is no reason for climbing gas prices and oil prices in America but good ole' fashion greed! It's not costing anymore to produce it and we are not in risk of losing it. The prices went up because they could get it. People have no choice unless they learn to live without oil. Foreign trade is next! When our government practices this theirs not much you can do about it. There wasn't one bad student, this is how America has made money for years! Off the backs of others. I mean, my god people, with these morals it's a free for all really. Your not smart, your just lucky! With the abundance in the uneducated and the abundance in people waiting to make a buck off it then it's just around the corner for most of ya. You don't have eyes in the back of your head, unless you can pay for them! And unless your a career student of life and have your whole life to dedicate to dogging the opponent it will catch up to you too.
This is a worthless topic(lost cause), you are right! It's just another attempt to feel good about oneself about another persons down fall. We could do this about everything all day long. Some would feel victorious some would not depending on the subject. I ride my bike to work, I just so happen to live close enough. But I am not going to down a bunch of people who live far from work and drive just because gas prices happened to go up while I was already riding my bike. I don't need to boost my self esteem off people who are caught in this crap. I could be next. If I lost my job and had to start driving next week I would be one of them. Useless topic in my opinion. Feeling in control and really being in control are two different things. Keep that in mind.
Funny because the very action of buying and selling a home for profit is the most direct reason prices in the market are so high. That is why more and more people had to take risks, and why lending practices were lowered. So the house flipping goons could keep flippin. People were jumping in to homes left and right because prices were sky rocketing. Its not rocket science. And anyone that tries to shift the blame away from house flippers is an IDIOT. Plenty of people made mistakes buying homes and this and that, but the FACT is the economy is crap, and homes are, and were overpriced because people are selling them for as much as they could possibly get someone to pay. Its NO different than oil companies charing as much as they can get from people. GREED is spot on. Greed from every angle, from millions of investors and real estate agents living fat from exploiting everyone else.
Its plain to see its already started back up again. Its compulsory for these people because they learned they could get rich by buying a small home, and then reselling, over and over until they could finally buy a home in cash or invest in commercial property. It isn't rocket science you greedy dopes. Many people just wanted a home quickly because you people were making the costs soar in to the stratosphere. So they thought they better buy, or they would never be able to. Now you want to blame them for your peoples very own actions of creating a very high risk, unstable, and expensive market that hit every middle class family right in the mouth while you got fat in the pocket and took vacations at seven different properties. Don't try to get technical about it. Real estate agents, and investors are greedy crooks flat out. Their profession is as crooked as any. They sell by maxing out prices all the time, and making profits. Things aren't sold by worth value, they're basically auctioned off to whoever is desperate enough to pay whatever they can get for it. Don't even get me started on stock holders either. If people used the same business practice that investors and real estate agents do, the entire world would be poor and flat broke while a small few became super rich.
/golfclap
You managed to find an area of the economy to exploit every penny out of and get rich quick. Now go fight over the crumbs and start over.
so flippers brought this economy to its knees? when you sold your house did you sell it for less than someone was willing to pay? the guy that flipped the house you bought must have had a pretty big gun? the gun that he put to your head and forced you to buy his house!
Well I'm an American and do hope to be as smart as you one day. Sounds like you have a bit of money to play with the market. Congrats to you! But I know plenty of foreigers who have mortgages. And I have since come to know plenty of smart Americans as they feel abliged to tell me how stupid I was and how I deserve what I have gotton on every turn! As a matter of fact I have read so much on the market now that I know even a fixed loan is a great gamble. One stroke or heart attack, flood, or job lose away from bad credit and loss of money invested. Life is risky, you can't forsee everything. Is an ARM riskier than a fixed, no duh. Is owning your own company more of a risk than working for someone, um, maybe unless you take your life into your own hands your never safe from others. Layoffs, illness, etc. Is trading with other countries risky? Is not knowing how to fix everything yourself risky? I mean I could go on and on. Honesty is not really a norm here in America. I don't know where your from but here people make a buck off ignorance at every turn. It's just good business! Even our government is into this. I don't know how anyone feels totally secure. You try your best and your best changes depending on new information you aquire. But don't fool your self about who's at risk in this country. If you had the knowledge in this area you would say there is risk in everything you do. Life is about risk. We have a stock market for those who play with risk. We risk lives in war, we risk lives living in dangerous weather, you can't live with out it. But you can get smart about it. And be willing to take it for what you want. You might loose you might win but winning doesn't make you smarter it just makes you luckier.
You can pick what risks you take and you can pick how you feel about them but you still are taking the risk. Your job is a risk, having kids is a risk, marriage, what you eat, drink, smoke, breath, the doctor you pick, the place you pick to eat. You are trusting it all. And with trust there is risk!
I trusted I could refi and the market wouldn't crash and the economy. I trusted it would be normal or the same as it was 2 years prior. A friend of mine trusted the doctor would do a good operation on her. He left a behind in her body, she was wrong on that one and died from infection. People trust the risks they take will work out in their favor all the time. They don't always do they?
This could go on forever really. I could analyse your life and point out all the risks you take everyday. And tell you I didn't take that one so I am smarter than you. But that would be self serving on my part and I don't think it changes the fact that we all take these risks. You can't be afraid of everything. You learn from mistakes. I have in the housing area. Just leave it at that. You will learn your own. We all do, no one is exempt from this. My whole point is people don't need to boost themselves up on the backs of people who made mistakes. It shouldn't make any difference how YOU feel about yourself. My mistake doesn't cost you anymore than yours cost me. It all evens out in the end. I pay taxes and higher insurance for everybodies mistakes as well. We are a tree whether you like it or not. It's always been dominos my friend. We all fall together and that is a fact.
I understand a part of what you try to get accross...there are risks in every thing you do...if you drive a car you can get in an accident, which a family member of me had, caused by some one else and still my family member is suffering from it...yes there are risks but you can also try to limit the amount of risks or except the risk you are taking. I have some stock and I'm aware that can be a gamble but try to buy them very low and sell them when the are higher...if they are down (or lower than i bought them for, i will not sell them and wait), but if you buy stocks and buy them with borrowed money than the risk is much higher...
Hurricanes, flood, acts of God are things no one can predict very well and are a huge risk. Buying a home with an ARM is a higher risk than buying a house that some one can afford, with a fixed 30 years mortgage.
I had a couple of businesses and some did very well and another wasn't doing so well. Was it a risk, yes of course it was, and nobody forced me to start it. But if you want to make more money than you have to take more risks than if you just want to work at (lets take this example) Wallmart. Nothing wrong with Wallmart...I like it because they have good prices and the risk that I over pay is less than going to some of the other grocery stores.
I will never know if I get a desease and hope never to get one, but I have health insurance to make the risk smaller that I can't afford the hospital, etc....
Maybe you go out and spend more money on eating out than I do, since I try to eat out once in a while but rather save it for other things so I can invest the money and make more money and I have more fun doing that. So it is all about making a choice and opportunities, but I can say the people who bought homes, could have bought smaller once with lower risks....and what does it matter that the values went down, do you think my home values went up...no of course not, but I'm not whining about it, I just wait and have it rented out, until the market goes back up and sell them when the value goes up again. So all the people who complain about their homes worth less, shouldn't worry so much because history has proven that it always have gone up and down and that will happen in the future, how long that will take...nobody will know, but it will happen.
My father in law's home value went down in the seventies...very very much, but he waited and rented it and sold it for a huge profit, years later.
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