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Any of you people ever actually worked on an assembly line? If not, shut up. The line never stops and neither do the workers. They are biological assembly robots. Assembly line is very hard work and worth every dollar.
Just what do the managers, accountants and executives add to the product that justifies their $600 to $6,000 per hour salary?
No, I woukld not work on an assembly line. The pay is not high enough. Yes, I would be an executive but that is not work. That is applied arrogant BS. I can do arrogant BS pretty well.
Worked assembly at $8/hour with no benefits for a non-union gig.
Yeah, I think that pay was appropriate for the work I was doing.
Something's out of kilter on the wage numbers posted above.
According to the latest labor dep't survey, the Average UAW represented worker receives a wage of:
Chrysler $75 hr, Ford $71 hr, GM $73 hr.
That's an annual income of well into 6 figures after tax deductions for an assembly line job. Add the benefits packages, and the manufacturers cost is closer to $120-130 hr for UAW labor.
Just look at the assembly lines, all they are doing is screwing bolts onto a car. Seriously. High school drop out could do that. No skill. No brain type of job. I am sorry but those type of jobs pay 8$/hr.
Have you ever met the $8/hr. workforce? Come and meet them in my state. Go to Walmart/McDonalds/Dunkin' Donuts/Etc., and ask this workforce if they are self-supporting. Ask them if they pay their rent without a subsidy(Section 8 or public project). Ask them if they pay for their families health care without subsidies(State run well-child programs like Husky in Ct.). Ask them if they pay for their kids food without subsidy("free" breakfast and lunch programs at school, "food stamps"(EBT/WIC). Ask them if they get to their job without a taxpayer subsidy(Public Bus). Ask them if they get cash money from the taxpayers(Earned Income Credit). Ask them if they pay for childcare while they're at work. The list goes on and on.
My point here is not to disparage the people who utilize these programs, the point is, employers must pay wages that allow for self-sufficiency. In many areas of our country, a husband and wife working full-time at this fantastic $8/hr. example wouldn't stand a chance of living without assistance of some kind. And "you" my friend, are the one who ultimately pays for this assistance.
Last edited by Stratford, Ct. Resident; 11-26-2008 at 11:16 AM..
Something's out of kilter on the wage numbers posted above.
According to the latest labor dep't survey, the Average UAW represented worker receives a wage of:
Chrysler $75 hr, Ford $71 hr, GM $73 hr.
That's an annual income of well into 6 figures after tax deductions for an assembly line job. Add the benefits packages, and the manufacturers cost is closer to $120-130 hr for UAW labor.
You're misinformed, the figure includes benefits.
Unions are part of the market. The answer is to unionize all industries and drive other wages up, not to knock other people down.
My point here is not to disparage the people who utilize these programs, the point is, employers must pay wages that allow for self-sufficiency. In many areas of our country, a husband and wife working full-time at this fantastic $8/hr. example wouldn't stand a chance of living without assistance of some kind. And "you" my friend, are the one who ultimately pays for this assistance.
Indeed. I wonder how many "free market" conservatives have thought this through to the realization that their taxes are subsidizing businesses that pay low wages.
Indeed. I wonder how many "free market" conservatives have thought this through to the realization that their taxes are subsidizing businesses that pay low wages.
Exactly. The laughable irony behind an effective proletariat class [yes white collars, YOU] cheering for the corporatist plutocracy that keeps them enslaved under economic dispossession vehicles such as the Federal Reserve while controlling the means of production for profit by monopolizing lobbying power and instilling the same anti-union clamoring we witness on this board. Truly and honestly, there is no worse blind than he who CHOOSES NOT to see.
For the anti-union in America crowd: Where do you collectively get off pointing the finger at populist economic power preservation efforts when we are economically dispossessed enough in this country to recognize we are not part of the plutocratic class? How can one reconcile that the same attitudes we exhibit against our fellow wage slaves are in effect the very price you pay to your master in the form of your OWN reduction in purchasing power?
My theory on that answer is what I call the Lebron James effect. Capitalist theory revolves around unchecked individualism, and the problem with that philosophical concept, much like unchecked capitalism, is that it fails to properly account for the scarcity of life. We can't all be Lebron James, but in America we all ASPIRE to be Lebron James. There's never a point where the oligarchy can say 'enough productivity', and the proletariat can say 'I enjoy my production/compensation level permanency'. The wheel has to eternally turn faster (money creation, specially of the debt currency kind like our system) for the system itself to justify its daily existence. Of course, in a properly balanced socio-economic system we could simply write off such philosophical excess as simply the cast of a Ship of Fools, but we don't live in the Land of the Free as they tell us we do; we live in a Corporatist state, where losses are subsidized and profits are privatized, where your fool-hardy neglect for the galactically obvious statistics on said scarcity, is a price I have to unwillingly share with you as part of the wage slave class. And you think union's the problem??
So don't tell me that the unions and what you perceive to be an inefficiency of productivity (from a kool-aid drinking lebron james wannabe capitalist perspective) is the root cause of our ill, that it will do the collective better to have a nation of de facto taco bell workers obediently plugging away at $0.10/hour 24 hours a day so that in your idealist world 1 out of 10 million individuals comes up with the next version of the proverbial iPod [i.e. that which we don't need anyways]??? So that somehow and somewhere that will theoretically allow you, our wishful lebron james capitalist wannabe, the ability to maybe one day enjoy the spoils of the plutocratic class (who know very well it's not about making an iPod, it never was) because you went to college and have this god given ability to do "brain work" and click your heels rather fast. ....get outta town with that middle class hard work mantra and put down the kool-aid. You are part of the neo-feudal wealth syphoning machine and you unwillingly, but more surprisingly UNKNOWINGLY, subsidize for the ruling class the very idea you despise on your fellow unionized wage slave. Instead of cheering for your own economic dispossession it would do the collective a hell of a lot more good to 1)educate yourself on the reasons you subscribe to said serfdom and 2) find a way to stand up against such injustice instead of pawning it off as the excess of your neighbor.
On a macroscopic level, it's quite telling that the country shrugs shoulders to the publicly apparent lack of voice and dispossession of power witnessed by the passing of the bailouts, in ignorant hopeful wait for the return of the American Dream, while concurrently denouncing those "socialist" and evil ideals of production for human need, instead of for monopoly, in a misdirected and misinformed attack against our own economic interests. We are after all, a reflection of who owns us....
Last edited by hindsight2020; 11-26-2008 at 01:21 PM..
In other words a lickspittle resents they guy who refuses to lick spittle more than he resents the guy whose spittle he licks. Why it's this way is a good question.
Exactly. The laughable irony behind an effective proletariat class [yes white collars, YOU] cheering for the corporatist plutocracy that keeps them enslaved under economic dispossession vehicles such as the Federal Reserve while controlling the means of production for profit by monopolizing lobbying power and instilling the same anti-union clamoring we witness on this board. Truly and honestly, there is no worse blind than he who CHOOSES NOT to see.
For the anti-union in America crowd: Where do you collectively get off pointing the finger at populist economic power preservation efforts when we are economically dispossessed enough in this country to recognize we are not part of the plutocratic class? How can one reconcile that the same attitudes we exhibit against our fellow wage slaves are in effect the very price you pay to your master in the form of your OWN reduction in purchasing power?
My theory on that answer is what I call the Lebron James effect. Capitalist theory revolves around unchecked individualism, and the problem with that philosophical concept, much like unchecked capitalism, is that it fails to properly account for the scarcity of life. We can't all be Lebron James, but in America we all ASPIRE to be Lebron James. There's never a point where the oligarchy can say 'enough productivity', and the proletariat can say 'I enjoy my production/compensation level permanency'. The wheel has to eternally turn faster (money creation, specially of the debt currency kind like our system) for the system itself to justify its daily existence. Of course, in a properly balanced socio-economic system we could simply write off such philosophical excess as simply the cast of a Ship of Fools, but we don't live in the Land of the Free as they tell us we do; we live in a Corporatist state, where losses are subsidized and profits are privatized, where your fool-hardy neglect for the galactically obvious statistics on said scarcity, is a price I have to unwillingly share with you as part of the wage slave class. And you think union's the problem??
So don't tell me that the unions and what you perceive to be an inefficiency of productivity (from a kool-aid drinking lebron james wannabe capitalist perspective) is the root cause of our ill, that it will do the collective better to have a nation of de facto taco bell workers obediently plugging away at $0.10/hour 24 hours a day so that in your idealist world 1 out of 10 million individuals comes up with the next version of the proverbial iPod [i.e. that which we don't need anyways]??? So that somehow and somewhere that will theoretically allow you, our wishful lebron james capitalist wannabe, the ability to maybe one day enjoy the spoils of the plutocratic class (who know very well it's not about making an iPod, it never was) because you went to college and have this god given ability to do "brain work" and click your heels rather fast. ....get outta town with that middle class hard work mantra and put down the kool-aid. You are part of the neo-feudal wealth syphoning machine and you unwillingly, but more surprisingly UNKNOWINGLY, subsidize for the ruling class the very idea you despise on your fellow unionized wage slave. Instead of cheering for your own economic dispossession it would do the collective a hell of a lot more good to 1)educate yourself on the reasons you subscribe to said serfdom and 2) find a way to stand up against such injustice instead of pawning it off as the excess of your neighbor.
On a macroscopic level, it's quite telling that the country shrugs shoulders to the publicly apparent lack of voice and dispossession of power witnessed by the passing of the bailouts, in ignorant hopeful wait for the return of the American Dream, while concurrently denouncing those "socialist" and evil ideals of production for human need, instead of for monopoly, in a misdirected and misinformed attack against our own economic interests. We are after all, a reflection of who owns us....
your economic theory could conceivably work if companies were not allowed to outsource their production. however, our government not only allows but encourages outsourcing. as long as that is an option, they will continue to move their business and help grow other countries. jobs grow your economy, even those low-paying jobs. a fully employed country is a lot less expensive to run. if you have no job, government has to subsidize you fully but if you have a job the private sector is basically doing some of the subsidization. our current economic climate does not allow these GM type union wages, which is why these companies are asking to be subsidized by the taxpayers to keep their wages up. maybe if government did not place so many regulations on car building in the first place, they could have kept the prices down and sold more cars, justifying higher wages. how does the GM bailout address the GM problems? i agree that now our country is now being forced to socialize the losses and the reason is that government is directly tied into big business!
Indeed. I wonder how many "free market" conservatives have thought this through to the realization that their taxes are subsidizing businesses that pay low wages.
You don't have to wonder too long, the fiscal conservative will suggest you remove the subsidies...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratford, Ct. Resident
My point here is not to disparage the people who utilize these programs, the point is, employers must pay wages that allow for self-sufficiency. In many areas of our country, a husband and wife working full-time at this fantastic $8/hr. example wouldn't stand a chance of living without assistance of some kind. And "you" my friend, are the one who ultimately pays for this assistance.
I'm in a pretty expensive area and a couple each making $8/hour can make it just fine without assistances. After tax (they will pay very little tax) that is about $29,000/year or $2,416/year. You can easily get an okay one-bedroom for around $1,000 a month, $400 on food, $200 on utilities (electric, phone, cable, internet). You still have $816 left a month if you want to get a car and for entertainment. etc. But you can easily get more than $8/hour here.
The problem is that people want to do nothing in school, learn nothing and then be able to make enough to buy a house, drive nice cars etc. So long as low skill jobs make enough to provide a basic life style that is all that is important. And if you can do that in Los Angeles, I'm sure you can do that in the vast majority of the country.
Unions distort the labor market. We can debate about whether assembly line work should be $X/hour, but it doesn't matter. The labor market is going to what the labor is worth. Personally, I think the pay from unionized auto shops is ridiculous. I've done work that is far worse for much less when I was young. In fact doing this partly motivated me to go to college and later get involved in business. I would spend all day working on a job and the paper work would be in front of me....including the invoice. Getting paid $80 bucks to do a job you know someone is getting $1,000 for is eye opening...
Last edited by Humanoid; 11-27-2008 at 04:16 AM..
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