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I'm in a pretty expensive area and a couple each making $8/hour can make it just fine without assistances. After tax (they will pay very little tax) that is about $29,000/year or $2,416/year. You can easily get an okay one-bedroom for around $1,000 a month, $400 on food, $200 on utilities (electric, phone, cable, internet). You still have $816 left a month if you want to get a car and for entertainment. etc. But you can easily get more than $8/hour here.
I think you're being a bit optimistic with all of the numbers that you've quoted. I don't have any data for 1BR. apartments, but i have some for 2BR's. Eye-opening.
http://www.nlihc.org/oor/oor2006/mostexpensivetable.pdf (broken link)
Unions distort the labor market. We can debate about whether assembly line work should be $X/hour, but it doesn't matter. The labor market is going to what the labor is worth. Personally, I think the pay from unionized auto shops is ridiculous. I've done work that is far worse for much less when I was young. In fact doing this partly motivated me to go to college and later get involved in business. I would spend all day working on a job and the paper work would be in front of me....including the invoice. Getting paid $80 bucks to do a job you know someone is getting $1,000 for is eye opening...
People have the right of association and people banding together for their economic gain as a union is no more a distortion of the market than people banding together to form a corporation is. In any event the market IS what the market IS. The actions of people affect the market and it's difficult to say one action is a "distortion" and another isn't. Usually what one considers a distortion is based on one's economic or social interests.
I see alot of jealousy and envy from white collar people towards well paid unionized blue collar workers like building tradesmen and UAW members. I think alot of this is based on pure old fashioned classism and a sense of white collar entitlement---that simply because a person went to college and works in an office they are then, by definition, worth more than any blue collar person. I've been hearing this kind of nonsense from white collar people (usually lower level ones) for 40 years.
I'll use right-wing response----if you think you're underpaid and the union tradesman is overpaid quit crying about it. Quit your job and become a union tradesman. Otherwise shut up.
Last edited by Irishtom29; 11-27-2008 at 08:42 AM..
More conservative hypocrisy. People have the right of association and people banding together for their economic gain as a union is no more a distortion of the market than people banding together to form a corporation is. In any event the market IS what the market IS. The actions of people affect the market and it's difficult to say one action is a "distortion" and another isn't. Usually what one considers a distortion is based on one's economic or social interests.
I see alot of jealousy and envy from white collar people towards well paid unionized blue collar workers like building tradesmen and UAW members. I think alot of this is based on pure old fashioned classism and a sense of white collar entitlement---that simply because a person went to college and works in an office they are then, by definition, worth more than any blue collar person. I've been hearing this kind of nonsense from white collar people (usually lower level ones) for 40 years.
I'll use right-wing response----if you think you're underpaid and the union tradesman is overpaid quit crying about it. Quit your job and become a union tradesman. Otherwise shut up.
Also the same people that voted against Obama because he would raise taxes. They are living in some dream world that they by some miracle will earn enough to be taxed more. But not to worry about these “white collar” wanna bees. The corporations they think have a ladder just waiting for them to climb up have another surprise waiting for them. When they reach the golden age of 40 all fat and happy they will find out that their services are no longer needed and the only jobs available will be the $8 per hour job that they worked so hard to put others in. Life’s a bi***, careful what you wish on others, it might come right back to you.
Also the same people that voted against Obama because he would raise taxes. They are living in some dream world that they by some miracle will earn enough to be taxed more. But not to worry about these “white collar” wanna bees. The corporations they think have a ladder just waiting for them to climb up have another surprise waiting for them. When they reach the golden age of 40 all fat and happy they will find out that their services are no longer needed and the only jobs available will be the $8 per hour job that they worked so hard to put others in. Life’s a bi***, careful what you wish on others, it might come right back to you.
Indeed. White collar workers are the new working class, college is the new vocational school and the office is the new factory. And the office work is now being shipped overseas just like the factory work.
You don't have to wonder too long, the fiscal conservative will suggest you remove the subsidies...
I'm in a pretty expensive area and a couple each making $8/hour can make it just fine without assistances. After tax (they will pay very little tax) that is about $29,000/year or $2,416/year. You can easily get an okay one-bedroom for around $1,000 a month, $400 on food, $200 on utilities (electric, phone, cable, internet). You still have $816 left a month if you want to get a car and for entertainment. etc. But you can easily get more than $8/hour here.
The problem is that people want to do nothing in school, learn nothing and then be able to make enough to buy a house, drive nice cars etc. So long as low skill jobs make enough to provide a basic life style that is all that is important. And if you can do that in Los Angeles, I'm sure you can do that in the vast majority of the country.
Unions distort the labor market. We can debate about whether assembly line work should be $X/hour, but it doesn't matter. The labor market is going to what the labor is worth. Personally, I think the pay from unionized auto shops is ridiculous. I've done work that is far worse for much less when I was young. In fact doing this partly motivated me to go to college and later get involved in business. I would spend all day working on a job and the paper work would be in front of me....including the invoice. Getting paid $80 bucks to do a job you know someone is getting $1,000 for is eye opening...
A couple working for those wages is in a losing proposition. What idiot would live in an area where over 1/2 that meager wage goes to live in some tiny apartment for 1,000 a month? Where is the money to get yourself out of that hole? LA is one royally screwed up place and anyone willing to live like that has some serious issues. I see the same nonsense in Florida. Spending more than 25% of your income on housing indicates fiscal irresponsibility, yet so many are foolish enough to do it. The very fact that employers in an expensive toilet like LA can get away with low wages is a prime example of why people support unions. However, I am against large established unions because they are like the parasites and greedy executives that squeeze workers in the first place.
The solution is in the free market, if people were free to start and run business without fighting government, the problem would resolve itself. I just cannot figure out why people accept low wages in expensive areas, that makes no sense to me.
The solution is in the free market, if people were free to start and run business without fighting government, the problem would resolve itself. I just cannot figure out why people accept low wages in expensive areas, that makes no sense to me.
The problem Tallrick is that over 100 years ago when businesses were free to run in any way they pleased the abuses forced things like unions and regulations. People tend to forget why regulation happened in the first place. And I'm pretty confident human nature hasn't changed since the 1880s.
One might argue that government regulation IS a part of the free market since it seems to be a natural reaction to it.
The problem Tallrick is that over 100 years ago when businesses were free to run in any way they pleased the abuses forced things like unions and regulations. People tend to forget why regulation happened in the first place. And I'm pretty confident human nature hasn't changed since the 1880s.
One might argue that government regulation IS a part of the free market since it seems to be a natural reaction to it.
Back then the government was paid off by the fat cats and supported the poor conditions. While humans are the same today our technology has improved greatly since then. If Government only existed to protect individual rights those oppressed could use Government to keep markets open and prevent price fixing or isolation of resources. Regulations are part of the free market as long as they do not pick winners and losers. WIth today's instant communications the free market could work in ways it could not in the 1800's. I believe that we should try it again, and this time limit regulations to those that protect individual freedom not the "common good". In a free market unions are encouraged, but you would be free to form opposing unions or even start your own business and not be limited to one corrupt labor association.
I don't know where that corporate clown got $60. but it's closer to $38. counting benefits. As usual the corporate propagandists are blaming the workers instead of the complacent, inept $30 million a year corporate elite and their golfing buddies that ran the companies into the ground and the ignorant looking for scapegoats are only too ready to believe them.
I don't know where that corporate clown got $60. but it's closer to $38. counting benefits. As usual the corporate propagandists are blaming the workers instead of the complacent, inept $30 million a year corporate elite and their golfing buddies that ran the companies into the ground and the ignorant looking for scapegoats are only too ready to believe them.
So true.
Were Lehman, AIG, Citi, etc. unionized workforces? Yep, unions are the root of all evil, lol.
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