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Old 02-20-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,213,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
The problem with many Americans is that they simply can not see well into their future. The limited education they have prevents them from being able put together complex pieces of information to form a general idea. We the people are to blame. We have become wealthy "like" and simple minded at the same time. Being so simple allows people of power to step on those who are weak minded.

I disagree...you can't spread the blame like you're frosting a cake.
Most people were busy earning a living, and not everyone can be educated.
A great economy has jobs at various levels. Everyone can't be a doctor or attorney.
Or, at the bottom, cleaning their homes, walking their dogs, or waiting on tables for them.
A great economy makes things. Manufacturing. Because manufacturing needs other businesses and so on. Service sector businesses don't provide this. That is why they are so low pay.
I don't think people allowed this. I agree that there are a lot of people who just don't care, "I don't like politics", blah blah...but that isn't everyone. We saw the economy diving in the early 80s, when it was considered savvy to offshore your workforce. Then everyone did it.

Remember, with all the trade agreements we knew about (NAFTA), there were the under the table deals (letting Mexicans come here for lower wages, etc.)
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,213,818 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by smilinpretty View Post
Outsourcing has been going on since the 60's. When I was a little girl we would buy our parents gifts for Mother's Day and Father's Day. We were told to see where the gift was made and if it was made in China, to not buy it.

I am totally against outsourcing. I think the 9 million people and counting, that are out of work, most will not be able to find a job in the same capacity. Just my opinion.

We need to put a ban on outsourcing. Everyone who believes this must write to their Senators and Congressman.

1. Make a law no company can move their operation out of the USA and sell their goods back to the USA. If they want to move, fine. But your product will not be brought back to USA for sale.
2. Encourage people to start their own businesses with low interest rates, incentives to start a business.
3. We must place ten times more border guards along the Mexican border. Not one illegal to get across the border. Check more vehicles coming across the border for drugs.

Bring back the shoe factories, clothing industry, electronic industry. Is there one television made in the USA?

Back in the 70s a television cost $500 and a microwave cost $400. That was alot of money back then. People would save their money to buy what they want. You could even park a car in a garage. Now the average person is $8,000. in debt on credit cards.

As consumers we need to stop all this frivolous spending. Most garages you can't even park a car in them, they are so filled with stuff.
You brought up a very good point. Things used to cost more. But our economy was better and the dollar bought you more. You were paid better during those times, inflation was lower, insurance was cheaper...
But now, we can get Chinese goods cheaper, but inflation is so steep. Our wages were traded in so a few could get more money and not act like Americans. Who would ever have thought someone would have an attitude like they do...and not employ the very people who bought their products and made them rich in the first place?
They knew eventually, we would not be buying their products because our buying power would in turn go down, but they have made their millions.

It is so Unpatriotic. It is so greedy and undignified, for someone to take advantage of the citizens of this country.
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,122,987 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
You brought up a very good point. Things used to cost more. But our economy was better and the dollar bought you more. You were paid better during those times, inflation was lower, insurance was cheaper...
But now, we can get Chinese goods cheaper, but inflation is so steep. Our wages were traded in so a few could get more money and not act like Americans. Who would ever have thought someone would have an attitude like they do...and not employ the very people who bought their products and made them rich in the first place?
They knew eventually, we would not be buying their products because our buying power would in turn go down, but they have made their millions.

It is so Unpatriotic. It is so greedy and undignified, for someone to take advantage of the citizens of this country.
Yes but they do it so well. They tell you goods will be cheaper if made in countries like China and India but don't tell you hope you will be able to afford them. They give us credit well beyond our means to pay it back in order to keep that flow of cheap goods moving across the Pacific Ocean and onto the shelves of Walmart. Greed finally got the best of these fools. With their greed goes the economy of our nation. We are a bunch of fools but the greatest dupes are the ones who continue to defend outsourcing. Maybe it’s because they are becoming wealthier at the expense average working class person
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Old 02-20-2009, 02:26 PM
f_m
 
2,289 posts, read 7,364,557 times
Reputation: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
Yes but they do it so well. They tell you goods will be cheaper if made in countries like China and India but don't tell you hope you will be able to afford them. They give us credit well beyond our means to pay it back in order to keep that flow of cheap goods moving across the Pacific Ocean and onto the shelves of Walmart. Greed finally got the best of these fools. With their greed goes the economy of our nation. We are a bunch of fools but the greatest dupes are the ones who continue to defend outsourcing. Maybe itís because they are becoming wealthier at the expense average working class person
Many products people don't have to buy, they just are not interested in sending a message to the producers. Dell right now will sell a computer for $279. Obvious it means as much as possible is being done by outsourcing in order to offer such a low price, but as long as people buy the products they will continue to do that.

It really hasn't been since Coke tried to replace what is now called "Classic Coke" with New Coke, that the consumer has revolted against a producer. They forced Coke to continue supplying "Classic Coke."
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Old 02-20-2009, 08:10 PM
 
2,775 posts, read 2,578,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatfastnoodle View Post
Outsourcing is inevitable, it's just another manifestation of a greatly expanded and greatly integrated world economy after the end of the cold war in which 3 billions+ well-educated and very hard-working people joined the global competition. Unless you want to completely wreck the international economic system which will bring more harm to the Western economy than it'll do to the developing world (we all rely on each other, but we can live without wall street financial innovation or even real innovation like google, but we can't live without oil, gas and all other national resources, most of which are under developing world's control), you have to figure out a way to deal with the sudden influx of people who are better educated AND willing for work more for less. Outsourcing is just a reaction to the imbalance of competitiveness and salary between developing and developed countries. It's painful, it will surely make lots of people feel bad and most of them might not be able to face the reality and blame their own plight on this or that scapegoats, usually this or that government. But the fact of matter is, this is the first time in 400 years that pretty much the whole world operates under a single economic system and competing more or less fairly, without far less distortation brought about by colonialism or communism. US's indebtedness is just a indirect reflection of the relative loss of competitivenss brought about first by emergence of Europe from WWII destruction, then by the emergence of Japan, then South East Asian countris and Korea, the the biggest giant: China. It has little to do with actual government policies, a more nationalistic and protectionalistic policy will reduce US competitveness even more, and it will have other negative effect on the economy even if government forced manufacturing jobs to remain in the states. In sum, what's happening right now is a culmination of gradual shift of world economy, the economy is just trying to rectify what was a grave inbalance in which much of the world's resources and talents were either taken away by the west for free or chosen to lock themselves up in their own nations. Unless a new equalilbium is established under which US and European standard of living must lower substantiallly to reflect the new world economic order, no government policy can stablisze or reverse the relative decline of US manufacturing industry, unless, of course,genetic scientists invents something that can make US workers much much smarter and much much more innovative.
Your points are interesting. However, the "facts" you base your ideas seem more based upon opinion than anything else. My research has supported the following instead:

1) Offshore outsourcing today is only as prevalent as it is because the wages for which people in India and China are willing and able to work for are much lower than those in other countries such as the US. It has nothing to do with competitiveness, better work ethic, difference in intelligence, nor does it have anything to do with Indians or Chinese being better educated than their US counterparts. Offshore outsourcing is done today by US companies because of a flawed tax system which benefits those who engage in it and because participation increases profit. That's it. If you remove the financial incentives to offshore outsource, then we'll be on a level playing field with the "low-cost" countries. Make no mistake about it, we are NOT at that point today.

2) India and China (and other low-cost outsourcing destinations) have nothing that the US needs. Yes, the Arab countries have massive quantities of oil, but otherwise the US is rich in natural resources. Most of the resources the US population needs reside on US soil.

3) US indebtedness cannot be summed up with a single statement regarding a loss of competitiveness. The truth is that US indebtedness has more to do with fighting wars overseas on behalf of other countries, continuing nation-building and humanitarian efforts, and lastly trade imbalances due to a system of trade and taxation which benefits those who do business cutting corners when it comes to safety (product and worker) and regulation of any kind. The US has a history of altruistically assisting other nations and people when in need. Although it has reaped many benefits from that behavior it has "blown its wad" while other countries such as India and China (and other low-cost outsourcing destinations) have focused upon building themselves up rather than engaging in like behavior.

4) Its a ridiculous notion that US and European standard of living should be "lowered" to that of China or India, or the other low-cost countries. Let's call it the way it is... our standard of living is higher because we have labor-laws, unions, decent health care, decent infrastructure, and a government which works for the people. Yes, the US has problems and none of the things I've mentioned are without flaws... but I sure as heck wouldn't want to see any changes brought about to our system to make us more like these offshore outsourcing destinations (let's not mince words either... not many of the folks from over there would give up an opportunity to live in the US if given half the chance today).

5) I know that US Government economic and labor policy would absolutely be effective in stablizing and reversing the decline in the US manufacturing industry. Fundamentally what needs to be done is to remove all the incentives to offshore outsource, and then provide incentives to manufacture in the US and to employ US citizens. Lastly, for those companies based outside the US which sell to US consumers, the government should just tax their products and services. This won't necessarily make friends with our current "trade partners," but after years of one way flow of money to outside US borders, isn't it about time we woke up and stopped doing the same thing especially at a time when our economy is in need of help? It's not rocket science.

6) I just want to point something out... US citizens are plenty smart enough to accomplish at least as much as any other "people" of the world. The level of intelligence and innovation which has come out of the US has surpassed that of most other nations of the world. The truth is that currently and for generations the best and brightest people of other countries have chosen to live and raise families in the US. To insinnuate otherwise just reflects lack of historical knowledge or a biased anti-US agenda.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 2,898,537 times
Reputation: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuszu View Post
Your points are interesting. However, the "facts" you base your ideas seem more based upon opinion than anything else. My research has supported the following instead:

1) Offshore outsourcing today is only as prevalent as it is because the wages for which people in India and China are willing and able to work for are much lower than those in other countries such as the US. It has nothing to do with competitiveness, better work ethic, difference in intelligence, nor does it have anything to do with Indians or Chinese being better educated than their US counterparts. Offshore outsourcing is done today by US companies because of a flawed tax system which benefits those who engage in it and because participation increases profit. That's it. If you remove the financial incentives to offshore outsource, then we'll be on a level playing field with the "low-cost" countries. Make no mistake about it, we are NOT at that point today.

2) India and China (and other low-cost outsourcing destinations) have nothing that the US needs. Yes, the Arab countries have massive quantities of oil, but otherwise the US is rich in natural resources. Most of the resources the US population needs reside on US soil.

3) US indebtedness cannot be summed up with a single statement regarding a loss of competitiveness. The truth is that US indebtedness has more to do with fighting wars overseas on behalf of other countries, continuing nation-building and humanitarian efforts, and lastly trade imbalances due to a system of trade and taxation which benefits those who do business cutting corners when it comes to safety (product and worker) and regulation of any kind. The US has a history of altruistically assisting other nations and people when in need. Although it has reaped many benefits from that behavior it has "blown its wad" while other countries such as India and China (and other low-cost outsourcing destinations) have focused upon building themselves up rather than engaging in like behavior.

4) Its a ridiculous notion that US and European standard of living should be "lowered" to that of China or India, or the other low-cost countries. Let's call it the way it is... our standard of living is higher because we have labor-laws, unions, decent health care, decent infrastructure, and a government which works for the people. Yes, the US has problems and none of the things I've mentioned are without flaws... but I sure as heck wouldn't want to see any changes brought about to our system to make us more like these offshore outsourcing destinations (let's not mince words either... not many of the folks from over there would give up an opportunity to live in the US if given half the chance today).

5) I know that US Government economic and labor policy would absolutely be effective in stablizing and reversing the decline in the US manufacturing industry. Fundamentally what needs to be done is to remove all the incentives to offshore outsource, and then provide incentives to manufacture in the US and to employ US citizens. Lastly, for those companies based outside the US which sell to US consumers, the government should just tax their products and services. This won't necessarily make friends with our current "trade partners," but after years of one way flow of money to outside US borders, isn't it about time we woke up and stopped doing the same thing especially at a time when our economy is in need of help? It's not rocket science.

6) I just want to point something out... US citizens are plenty smart enough to accomplish at least as much as any other "people" of the world. The level of intelligence and innovation which has come out of the US has surpassed that of most other nations of the world. The truth is that currently and for generations the best and brightest people of other countries have chosen to live and raise families in the US. To insinnuate otherwise just reflects lack of historical knowledge or a biased anti-US agenda.
Amen, I concur...

To add, currency manipulation and monetary system manipulation.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:42 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,029,293 times
Reputation: 6377
Default Change?

VOA News - Clinton Urges China to Keep Buying US Debt (http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-02-22-voa11.cfm - broken link)

The partisan democrat that now supports Obama is a complete fool.
The top U.S. diplomat says Washington must incur more debt to China to boost the ailing U.S. economy and stimulate demand for Chinese products. She says it would not be in China's interest if the U.S. is unable to get its economy out of a recession.

So once again this is meant to suck up dollars so Wall Street can print them. Since this will support Chinese manufacturer what do you think that does for the US?
The solution is to strengthen the Yuan and have China spend some of their money. This will help our economy which will help theirs. If you don't think so, then tear up your copy of the wealth of nations because its about trade. Paper for product isn't trade.
If you would like to know one of my super market metrics , its almonds. I love almonds but so does the rest of the world. Its part of California's agricultural muscle and a jewel of American productivity. The price of almonds has dropped. I know because I buy them. Trade is dropping.

CalTrade Report - GLOBAL DEMAND FOR CAL ALMONDS FALLS
California almond growers ship more than 70% of their crop overseas, but officials say the strengthening dollar has cut demand from big almond consumers such as China and India.
If you are an almond grower Hillary has slit your throat.

China needs to convert some of their industry to domestic manufacture, lower taxes to spur local demand, let the Yuan float which will raise the buying power of Chinese labor and create demand for world trade goods like the California almond.

Last edited by gwynedd1; 02-22-2009 at 11:52 AM..
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:44 AM
 
5,640 posts, read 16,929,451 times
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OT: BUT I saw this program the other day "china rising" OMG the workers rights there are horrendous. I saw many workers whose hands had been ripped off because of unsafe machinery they are forced to work with. And they get NO compensation and as a result of having no hand, they can no longer work and are forced to beg. One poor dude who had his feet mangled, could not afford crutches (govt. will not give him any) and he is forced to crawl around from place to place since he cannot walk.

It was about a lawyer who is trying to get the govt. to help these people and of course the local govt. is giving him all kinds of problems because any attempt to help these disabled is thought of as treason because it will stop even a small part of the money flow to development in their towns.

THIS is what we are competing with people.... if you can get a chance to see this, please watch it. I can't even remember what channel it was on.
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:55 AM
 
1,020 posts, read 2,209,119 times
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Quote:
I find it hard to believe that something sold for $10 and one fine day someone had the bright idea of outsourcing and the next year onwards the same thing started selling for $3.
Inflation in prices of all goods. Since the cost of labor went down, so did the cost of spoons relative to inflation. (you spent $3 when it was made here years ago, and you spend $3 now when prices for all goods have gone up, so relatively you're paying less).
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Old 02-22-2009, 12:19 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 2,209,119 times
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Outsourcing does have some blame, but not all. The way it should ideally work is when you have a dearth of labor here for your given product or the costs here become too high while the quality of the product is diminished, you go overseas. This would be ideal for car manufacturers, in fact. It's too expensive here. Labor unions choke the companies expansion. Companies like Toyota and Honda build BETTER cars that cost less and they still make a profit. Germans also build great cars catered to high end users in America.

You have some industries, though, that probably could do it better here with less labor (and thus labor cost) that outsource.
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