U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Thread summary:

American economy in bad shape, Americanís not making anything, no manufacturing base, America importing everything from China, outsourcing, made in China

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-26-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Washington State
389 posts, read 925,585 times
Reputation: 249

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphous01 View Post
You know, when it boils right down to it, I believe one of the key reasons our economy is in the tank is because we don't make much of anything anymore; and after I watched this documentary about the construction of LNG supertankers I'm sad to say that I can't even see Americans building anything of high quality. I mean, in this video even the workers look like robots!


Hulu - National Geographic Channel: SuperTanker (http://www.hulu.com/watch/47227/national-geographic-channel-supertanker - broken link)
Your question: Can Americans produce anything of high quality?

My answer: Can we do produce anything BUT high quality? What CAN'T we produce?

Economists with masters and doctorates and whatnot can't explain fully why our economy is in the tank... sure there are certain things that contribute to our (if by "our" you mean the US, because this board is worldwide, not just for Americans like us) economic downfall, but... you, the armchair economist, don't know the answer. If you did, you would be massively wealthy for already FIXING the economy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Washington State
389 posts, read 925,585 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Americans can make great products. The problem is Unions. They strong arm industries to giving even bad employees huge pay and benefits they don't deserve and make it hard to fire those bad employees. If it's so hard to get fired then why bother even trying to work hard.
Okay, I realize this may be for a different thread, but walk with me here....

1. I have the right, as an individual to go to my employer and say "Hey... I want a pay raise. If you don't give me more pay, I'm not going to work for you."

2. A buddy and I have the right to go into our boss's office TOGETHER and say "Hey, if you don't give us BOTH pay raises, we won't work tomorrow." So WHY are Unions such a problem?

Answer: They aren't. Unions are not only a necessary part of the work world, they also motivate workers to do higher quality work. The quality of work at, for example, American auto makers' plants is VERY high. Workers are EXTREMELY efficient.

The problem isn't unions, the problem is inefficiency within business. Let's take Home Depot for example.. my FIL works there, so I know a bit about it.

Okay, there are thirty something departments in my FIL's store. There's 1 district manager. Okay, so far.. Now, under him are 4 assistant managers. FOUR. Under them is a supervisor for every either 1 or 2 departments. So that's 16-32 supervisors. So right now, we're at 21-37 workers and we haven't even gotten to the people that are actually PRODUCING something for the company. Each department has a floor lead. So that's 32 leads. So we're at anywhere from 53-59 workers and we haven't actually GOTTEN to the workers.

But, no, it CAN'T be mismanagement! Why, companies taking private jets when their company is in the tank... that's the fault of the UNIONS! How DARE they demand higher pay? How DARE they demand some kind of retirement? I mean, the workers just dedicated their productive lives to the company, HOW DARE THEY ASK FOR ANYTHING IN RETURN!!! THEY SHOULD BEG FOR ANY CRUMBS THEY GET FROM THE MASTER'S TABLE!!! NOW GET ON YOUR KNEES AND BEG FOR CRUMBS!

And companies blowing money on giant Ponzi schemes... why that should be PERFECTLY acceptable! And, why, if you normally get millions in bonuses, you should even if your company is doing poorly! If you're in management, it isn't YOUR fault your company isn't turning a profit! No, not at all....

Look, you can be fired if you are represented by a union, it's merely a matter of proving incompetency. So it isn't about getting rid of "bad" workers. If anything, the economy is tanking because the pay gap has gotten too large.

Back in the 60s-70s, the average CEO earned 25 times what the average worker made. TWENTY-FIVE times!!!! In 2006, the average CEO made 400 times what the average worker made.... FOUR HUNDRED! That is INSANE. ONE of the reasons the economy SUCKS so badly is that people aren't being paid appropriately for work they are doing... and when the people don't have money to spend, they typically don't spend it. What America has, overall, been doing for the past 20 years or so though is buying things on credit... now that has caught up to us.

But go ahead, stick your head back in the sand and condemn those unions. How dare they stick up for worker's rights? Why, they shouldn't even exist at all because ALL companies are run by the most philanthropic of people who have the workers' interests at heart.. yeah, right.

/end rant
//end threadjack
/// sorry everybody
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:16 PM
 
3,440 posts, read 7,049,686 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticPhoenix View Post
Your question: Can Americans produce anything of high quality?

My answer: Can we do produce anything BUT high quality? What CAN'T we produce?

Economists with masters and doctorates and whatnot can't explain fully why our economy is in the tank... sure there are certain things that contribute to our (if by "our" you mean the US, because this board is worldwide, not just for Americans like us) economic downfall, but... you, the armchair economist, don't know the answer. If you did, you would be massively wealthy for already FIXING the economy.
Ouch!! Well, I know you went to school. It's funny how you people with degrees seem to think that the average Joe on the street does not have the ability to fix a problem.

With all the arrogance you display, I bet you would have trouble running a simple hotdog stand business on the corner of NYC.

By the way, these Economists that you look to everyday that keep you in fear are nothing but paid spokes holes for the powers that be.. Haven't you seen the documentary on Enron scandal there is a segment about it in there...

Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Washington State
389 posts, read 925,585 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphous01 View Post
Ouch!! Well, I know you went to school. It's funny how you people with degrees seem to think that the average Joe on the street does not have the ability to fix a problem.

With all the arrogance you display, I bet you would have trouble running a simple hotdog stand business on the corner of NYC.

By the way, these Economists that you look to everyday that keep you in fear are nothing but paid spokes holes for the powers that be.. Haven't you seen the documentary on Enron scandal there is a segment about it in there...

Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room
You DON'T have the ability to fix the economy, though. Neither do I. If EITHER of us did, you think we'd be talking on teh intarwebs?

My point is that none of us can come up with a simple answer as to why the economy is in the shiatter because there isn't one... none of us are smart enough, and not even the economists with tons of degrees can figure it out... do you think you or I, Joe Average, could possibly figure it out?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Virginia
931 posts, read 3,410,494 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticPhoenix View Post
Okay, I realize this may be for a different thread, but walk with me here....

1. I have the right, as an individual to go to my employer and say "Hey... I want a pay raise. If you don't give me more pay, I'm not going to work for you." A right? I guess, you'll probably be fired though. You can't just demand stuff like that. It's unprofessional.

2. A buddy and I have the right to go into our boss's office TOGETHER and say "Hey, if you don't give us BOTH pay raises, we won't work tomorrow." So WHY are Unions such a problem? I'd fire you both. Intimidation is not going to help your situation.

Answer: They aren't. Unions are not only a necessary part of the work world, they also motivate workers to do higher quality work. The quality of work at, for example, American auto makers' plants is VERY high. Workers are EXTREMELY efficient. Unions are pretty much socialism/communism. They allow workers to work as little as they want, at whatever quality they want. We need to get rid of all unions. They are something of the past. They are not helping us one bit now.

The problem isn't unions, the problem is inefficiency within business. Let's take Home Depot for example.. my FIL works there, so I know a bit about it. In a capitalistic society, good businesses do well and bad businesses fail. Of the ones that do well, I imagine they run efficiently.

Okay, there are thirty something departments in my FIL's store. There's 1 district manager. Okay, so far.. Now, under him are 4 assistant managers. FOUR. Under them is a supervisor for every either 1 or 2 departments. So that's 16-32 supervisors. So right now, we're at 21-37 workers and we haven't even gotten to the people that are actually PRODUCING something for the company. Each department has a floor lead. So that's 32 leads. So we're at anywhere from 53-59 workers and we haven't actually GOTTEN to the workers. Why does this matter? If the business structure doesn't work, they will change it.

But, no, it CAN'T be mismanagement! Why, companies taking private jets when their company is in the tank... that's the fault of the UNIONS! How DARE they demand higher pay? How DARE they demand some kind of retirement? I mean, the workers just dedicated their productive lives to the company, HOW DARE THEY ASK FOR ANYTHING IN RETURN!!! THEY SHOULD BEG FOR ANY CRUMBS THEY GET FROM THE MASTER'S TABLE!!! NOW GET ON YOUR KNEES AND BEG FOR CRUMBS! Don't think any companies owe you anything. They already paid you. If you want more money, develop a new skill, go back to school. Why should you be compensated just so you can stay in line with inflation? If your company doesn't reward you for you working hard, find a new place to work. If you think you constantly need to be rewarded, like many Americans, maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask yourself what makes you a valuable employee? Ganging up on employers is not going to get you anywhere. You'll be fired. 100 immigrants can be trained to do the same job, they won't whine and complain about it and they will work for less.

And companies blowing money on giant Ponzi schemes... why that should be PERFECTLY acceptable! And, why, if you normally get millions in bonuses, you should even if your company is doing poorly! If you're in management, it isn't YOUR fault your company isn't turning a profit! No, not at all....Not necessarily. It depends on how the particular industy is performing. Some businesses are very cyclical. Other factors come in place besides management. Businesses poay bonus instead of raising people salaries, they can write it off on taxes and save more money. That's why it seems the bonuses just keep getting bigger, they actually are, but salary increases are diminishing. Just something to think about...

Look, you can be fired if you are represented by a union, it's merely a matter of proving incompetency. So it isn't about getting rid of "bad" workers. If anything, the economy is tanking because the pay gap has gotten too large. The economy is tanking because of several different factors, done IMO related to pay gaps.

Back in the 60s-70s, the average CEO earned 25 times what the average worker made. TWENTY-FIVE times!!!! In 2006, the average CEO made 400 times what the average worker made.... FOUR HUNDRED! That is INSANE. ONE of the reasons the economy SUCKS so badly is that people aren't being paid appropriately for work they are doing... Not being paid appropriately? Find a new job then. Go back to school. Make yourself more competitive.

But go ahead, stick your head back in the sand and condemn those unions. How dare they stick up for worker's rights? Why, they shouldn't even exist at all because ALL companies are run by the most philanthropic of people who have the workers' interests at heart.. yeah, right.

/end rant
//end threadjack
/// sorry everybody
I'd just relax man. It's not that bad out there. A lot of people get into trouble for their own fault.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:35 PM
 
3,440 posts, read 7,049,686 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticPhoenix View Post
You DON'T have the ability to fix the economy, though. Neither do I. If EITHER of us did, you think we'd be talking on teh intarwebs?

My point is that none of us can come up with a simple answer as to why the economy is in the shiatter because there isn't one... none of us are smart enough, and not even the economists with tons of degrees can figure it out... do you think you or I, Joe Average, could possibly figure it out?
With all due respect; don't tell me what I can't do.. If you can't think of a way to fix the problem well that has little relevance to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:39 PM
 
3,440 posts, read 7,049,686 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticPhoenix View Post
Back in the 60s-70s, the average CEO earned 25 times what the average worker made. TWENTY-FIVE times!!!! In 2006, the average CEO made 400 times what the average worker made.... FOUR HUNDRED! That is INSANE. ONE of the reasons the economy SUCKS so badly is that people aren't being paid appropriately for work they are doing..

Yep, I agree with this.. This is just sickening!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Washington State
389 posts, read 925,585 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
A right? I guess, you'll probably be fired though. You can't just demand stuff like that. It's unprofessional.
Sure I can! If my boss needs me and values me, he'll give me the raise I'm demanding. It isn't unprofessional. Well, depending on how you do it, it CAN be unprofessional, but telling your boss you won't work for appropriate wages, in and of itself, isn't unprofessional.

Quote:
I'd fire you both. Intimidation is not going to help your situation.
Which is why Unions are so necessary. You can't fire your entire work force.

Quote:
Unions are pretty much socialism/communism. They allow workers to work as little as they want, at whatever quality they want. We need to get rid of all unions. They are something of the past. They are not helping us one bit now.
Complete BS. Unions allow workers to be paid well for their work and protect their rights. Do you enjoy your weekend? Thank the Unions. If it weren't for them, you'd be working 7 days a week. Or, you know, if you went to your boss and asked for days off, he'd just fire you.

Quote:
In a capitalistic society, good businesses do well and bad businesses fail. Of the ones that do well, I imagine they run efficiently.
I agree. Unfortunately, businesses that run inefficiently are pretty common now, and that is certainly helping to drag them down. It's okay, though, the govt. will bail them out... How dare anyone take consequences for their actions?!

Quote:
Don't think any companies owe you anything. They already paid you. If you want more money, develop a new skill, go back to school. Why should you be compensated just so you can stay in line with inflation? If your company doesn't reward you for you working hard, find a new place to work. If you think you constantly need to be rewarded, like many Americans, maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask yourself what makes you a valuable employee? Ganging up on employers is not going to get you anywhere. You'll be fired. 100 immigrants can be trained to do the same job, they won't whine and complain about it and they will work for less.
If they're still making money off of my work, then yes, they still owe me.

Quote:
Not necessarily. It depends on how the particular industy is performing. Some businesses are very cyclical. Other factors come in place besides management. Businesses poay bonus instead of raising people salaries, they can write it off on taxes and save more money. That's why it seems the bonuses just keep getting bigger, they actually are, but salary increases are diminishing. Just something to think about...
Some businesses ARE cyclical. However, the banking industry (like the one I was referencing specifically) isn't as cyclical as other industries.

Quote:
The economy is tanking because of several different factors, done IMO related to pay gaps.
Well, if people don't make money to spend, they can't spend it... like I pointed out. Glad you agree with me! This is why unions ARE necessary, because they ensure that their workers make more money than their non-union counterparts.

Quote:
Not being paid appropriately? Find a new job then. Go back to school. Make yourself more competitive.
Okay... without representation, how does that happen? If nobody will pay you a fair wage, how do you go about getting that fair wage? Go back to school? Okay, good luck with tuition and good luck getting a loan for it now too.

Quote:
I'd just relax man. It's not that bad out there. A lot of people get into trouble for their own fault.
I agree a lot of people get into trouble and it is their fault. However, that doesn't mean that workers shouldn't be supported. Unions are a benefit to a company. They ensure that management can't strong-arm their employees. You can sit back and say "Yeah, just go find another job.." but that isn't always feasible, especially when paying subpar wages is the norm.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
5,615 posts, read 12,425,684 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by car54 View Post
I heard Boeing airplanes fly pretty good....are they still made in the US?
Yes. Some assemblies are made overseas, but there's still a large fab division (in addition to the large amount of 'stuff' from domestic suppliers), and final assembly is done in Everett and Renton, WA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2009, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Washington State
389 posts, read 925,585 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphous01 View Post
With all due respect; don't tell me what I can't do.. If you can't think of a way to fix the problem well that has little relevance to me.
With all due respect, you would have fixed the problem if you could. You can't. You are a poster on teh intarwebs.

So, you can't fix the economy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top