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Thread summary:

American economy in bad shape, Americanís not making anything, no manufacturing base, America importing everything from China, outsourcing, made in China

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:39 PM
 
13,180 posts, read 12,691,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Americans can make great products. The problem is Unions. They strong arm industries to giving even bad employees huge pay and benefits they don't deserve and make it hard to fire those bad employees. If it's so hard to get fired then why bother even trying to work hard.
You just have no idea what you are talking about...unionization in Europe is much higher than it is in the US ( as high as 85% in Sweden) and they export manufactured goods all over the World.

Do you have any shame at all?
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Southern California Mountains
563 posts, read 1,220,514 times
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A friend of our's is a licensed painting contractor. A couple of years ago he agreed to help on a union job painting a large building complex. He got to the job site at 7:00 am, organized his tools and brought out his massive roller. He started working, quickly and professional as usual. Over an hour later, the union boss finally arrived to work, spotted my friend working efficiently and fast, and told him to stop work. He informed my friend that they did not allow the oversized roller, but used smaller ones, and not to start work before 8 or 9 am. He was also chastized for being "too efficient" and "fast".
My friend left that job.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:05 PM
 
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you need a fair balance between socialism and capitalism for an economy to run efficiently and to prevent exploitation from either side. without capitalism, you have no incentive to better yourself or opportunities. without socialism, you have easy exploitation which ends in predominantly the same result-unhappy employees and social problems.

not that that there is one easy answer to the problem but i can't count how many times i've been turned down for jobs that i was qualified for or could be trained for simply due to the prejudices of the one who happened to interview me. it's an unspoken rule that we all know in the back of our heads that you won't be hired if you are not liked as well. this is not supposed to happen but it does, then you end up with the negatives of everything that clannish or cliqueishness causes and eventual mediocre to poor production and marginalizing because the system is open to all types of exploitation from all directions and unethical behavior. you have bad employees that don't deserve the position they have, as well as those who are denied due to human prejudice or quirks. i can't recall how many times i've run into horrible customer service AS WELL as instances where too much was asked or expected of the employee too. this is a very light example of the 'evils' of capitalism that people refer to. that being said, you have unethical behavior and those that will take advantage if everything is handed to them on a silver platter. the solution is what will prevent bringing out the worst faults in people-those that unfairly take advantage. that will be a multi-solution, not just one.

i recall an article where customer service agents were constantly propositioned because the employees were pushed to be too "friendly", for example. like they were expected to sell themselves. that's viewing employees as a 'commodity' and another example of unrealism. it's human error that is constantly the problem, the more humans are out of the picture and more things become "computerized", the better it will be. i am absolutely convinced of this. technology has no bias, it is pure efficiency and honesty; interestingly ending in more humanity and fairness. i would rather put my qualifications into a computer and let it decide if i qualify for something than some human riddled with thier own issues and prejudice decide my own fate! and let me succeed or fail on my own merits and not some other human as if they have a right to jjudge and determine my own destiny. disgusting..

bottomline, the world is still too primitive. lol

Last edited by leaana; 02-26-2009 at 11:36 PM..
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:30 PM
 
41 posts, read 58,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaana View Post
ironicly, i think it's technology that is going to eventually save the united states and the world. looking totally to the past isn't the answer either. as robotics and more efficient methods of production increase, the better overall conditions for employees will ensue and a higher quality of life. eventually.

ironicly, when humans are needed and used less as a "commodity."
I agree, and think technology could be the solution to our problems. The scary thing is, who will own the robots? We've seen the greed on display by CEO's in america, and the massive disparity between the working and (essentially) royalty class. What would they do if they owned not only the company itself, but also the workers (robots)? Would they still charge the same for a product, even when it costs 1/10th the cost to make? You bet they would.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t View Post
I agree, and think technology could be the solution to our problems. The scary thing is, who will own the robots? We've seen the greed on display by CEO's in america, and the massive disparity between the working and (essentially) royalty class. What would they do if they owned not only the company itself, but also the workers (robots)? Would they still charge the same for a product, even when it costs 1/10th the cost to make? You bet they would.
not necessarily. greed is there simply because it needs to exploit in order to gain. if you take out the need to exploit, it may even things out. i'm not presuming it will be perfect but a lot better.

things have improved from the past but evolution is still at work and there is a long way to go. it will undoubtedly not be in my life-time but i am hopeful that life will get better for all those in the future even if i never see it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:27 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,029,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
You just have no idea what you are talking about...unionization in Europe is much higher than it is in the US ( as high as 85% in Sweden) and they export manufactured goods all over the World.

Do you have any shame at all?
Hi padcrasher,

Its actually not a good comparison. A small country with international competition generally does well with socialism in comparison. There is still competitive pressure externally . The other missing like is they are Swedes. They are much more of a loyal extended family than the rest of the world. As we see in Europe they do not do so well as the Swedes in similar arrangements. If you drank the multicultural cool aid and assume organizational structures apply equally to every culture then one might miss this important detail.

Of course if most of the capital is controlled by cartels then the only rational response labor has at its disposal is a union for a mutually detrimental arrangement albeit better than a one sided arrangement.
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:18 AM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
7,677 posts, read 24,979,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezertGirl View Post
The US still makes great sand cars and Harleys. Harley Davidson hasn't sold out have they?
Harleys?? Of all the products you could have mentioned, you had to bring up those scandalously fragile, moronic disasters. What about today's Fords which are rapidly catching up to the famed Japanese brands?
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:57 AM
 
9,078 posts, read 5,659,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticPhoenix View Post
YES, it's fair that employees are able to retire and live and collect dividends from their investment. You must not believe in the stock market. Employees make investments into a company, and they see the returns on these investments when they retire.

I don't think you get what's going on here, Sailordave... Okay, try to follow along, I'll explain this.

The average price of a new vehicle sells for about 28K (and some change). We'll use whole numbers here because at this time in my day, I've normally been in bed for the last two hours, so I'm pretty tired... anywho..

So we've got:
Sale's Price: $28,000

The average cost to make a vehicle (this is according to UAW AND Ford/Chrysler/GM's own reports) are around $2800, including legacy costs. INCLUDING legacy costs. So that's TEN PERCENT of the cost of the average vehicle.

That leaves 90% missing... well okay, dealerships have to make money, but they can't make more than a few thousand off of each vehicle. So let's say they make around $2800/vehicle.

So now we're at 20% of the vehicle's cost. Where's the rest of the money going?

Let's say transportation costs are higher now and take up $5600/vehicle (that's an insane amount, but let's run with it just for fark's sake). That's another 20% of the cost. So now we're at 40%.

But all transportation costs, worker costs, and dealership profits are taken into account now. And we're at 40%.

Well, marketing takes up some money, so let's say marketing is 10%, too, so now we're at 50% of the vehicle's costs...

Ooh! Parts! Parts cost money, but not much since most car companies buy parts that are made in other countries... still, let's assume it's about $2800/vehicle. Now we're at 60% of the car's price.

WHERE is that other 40% going? WHERE? To management. AND THEY CAN'T LIVE OFF OF FORTY PERCENT?!

If you are making something and it only costs you TEN PERCENT of what you sell it for, and your company STILL can't turn a profit... you are DOING IT WRONG.
Good post ! Someone get's it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,865,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphous01 View Post
You know, when it boils right down to it, I believe one of the key reasons our economy is in the tank is because we don't make much of anything anymore;
Soldiers.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,366,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
You think it's fair that employees who no longer work for a company are still collecting a paycheck from the company?
Ever hear of a pension?

Are you opposed to pensions?
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