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Old 05-28-2009, 09:00 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 25,345,838 times
Reputation: 14511

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
Putting blind faith in the notion of "bondholder's rights" while dismissively sidestepping the notion of labor contract lottery in this country is beyond disingenuous.
Please elaborate.

What is it that you are saying the labor unions are entitled to, in this scenario?
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:58 AM
 
1,738 posts, read 3,897,367 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber_factory View Post
Please elaborate.

What is it that you are saying the labor unions are entitled to, in this scenario?
It's got nothing to do with unions. I'm just trying to illustrate the moral relativism in placing fiat on the "iron-cladness" of a lending vehicle (bonds) with the shoulder-shrugging towards those who get their labor compensation promise shredded with no recourse. We cheer on the latter outcome, but we whine for the former. It's all in the same, the difference here is that the peanut gallery still refuses to believe the market is a ponzi scheme. That the promise of repayment of one (FIAT) is somehow different than the promise of repayment of the other. It isn't, it's all smoke and mirrors and the sooner people realize this, the sooner we can organize to protect the fruit of our labor.

It's kinda like the homeloanership crowd. "Um, homes never depreciate..." Yeah they do. "Um, but it's so unlikely, look at the past". So what? historical data doesn't mean you're entitled to ch$t. Bondholders thought that's a guarantee not to lose your money. They base this on the FAITH that the market is not a scheme and the "common wisdom" that GM would never face said outcome. Bankruptcy court is for the dupes that turn wrenches on a worthless labor contract, they smirk privately. Guess again. Suing is just an illustration that people refuse to believe the market is not their savior and protector.

Everybody is getting fleeced, bondholders are no different in this scenario. That is after all what socializing losses looks like. Remember, private profit, social loss, that is America. Forget Jefferson and all that chaff we teach kids in high school while they don't pay attention and rather text in class about the new iPod, America is a textbook case of a corporatocracy, and these outcomes are in line with said system. Instead of clicking your heels and vouching for the system (rejecting the idea of the stock market as a means of upward wealth siphoning), challenge it. The scope of these lawsuits are illustrations that we are not ready to disavow the system. They still believe in the FIAT they placed on it, and for that I feel no sympathy.
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:19 AM
 
975 posts, read 1,548,122 times
Reputation: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
It's got nothing to do with unions. I'm just trying to illustrate the moral relativism in placing fiat on the "iron-cladness" of a lending vehicle (bonds) with the shoulder-shrugging towards those who get their labor compensation promise shredded with no recourse. We cheer on the latter outcome, but we whine for the former. It's all in the same, the difference here is that the peanut gallery still refuses to believe the market is a ponzi scheme. That the promise of repayment of one (FIAT) is somehow different than the promise of repayment of the other. It isn't, it's all smoke and mirrors and the sooner people realize this, the sooner we can organize to protect the fruit of our labor.

It's kinda like the homeloanership crowd. "Um, homes never depreciate..." Yeah they do. "Um, but it's so unlikely, look at the past". So what? historical data doesn't mean you're entitled to ch$t. Bondholders thought that's a guarantee not to lose your money. They base this on the FAITH that the market is not a scheme and the "common wisdom" that GM would never face said outcome. Bankruptcy court is for the dupes that turn wrenches on a worthless labor contract, they smirk privately. Guess again. Suing is just an illustration that people refuse to believe the market is not their savior and protector.

Everybody is getting fleeced, bondholders are no different in this scenario. That is after all what socializing losses looks like. Remember, private profit, social loss, that is America. Forget Jefferson and all that chaff we teach kids in high school while they don't pay attention and rather text in class about the new iPod, America is a textbook case of a corporatocracy, and these outcomes are in line with said system. Instead of clicking your heels and vouching for the system (rejecting the idea of the stock market as a means of upward wealth siphoning), challenge it. The scope of these lawsuits are illustrations that we are not ready to disavow the system. They still believe in the FIAT they placed on it, and for that I feel no sympathy.
I must say after reading this I can only conclude that the educational system you speak of was no better when you were in school. Good grief! LOL!
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:02 PM
 
1,738 posts, read 3,897,367 times
Reputation: 4566
With a name like traderX, do I have an expectation of effecting your adoration for the mantra of creating faux wealth out of the action of trading paper back and forth real fast? Of course not. Furthermore, if I were to rely on the public education system to prepare me to critically think, particularly to argue against the very system that subsidizes it, well that would be an impossibility.

Your very belief in the viability of the market in its current form is based on the willingness of the pawns (the proletariat, of which you actually belong to as well) to substantiate the system. I ask of you, who's gonna buy your paper when this thing pops wide open? Not me. I find it hilarious when people attempt to distinguish between Madoff and the market in general. The architecture is identical. The orders of magnitude may vary, but it is the architecture what makes it a ponzi scheme. That you disagree is just that, your opinion. But your mercantilism doesn't make you enlightened, nor gives you a clue...meh.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:09 PM
 
975 posts, read 1,548,122 times
Reputation: 523
Whatever you say almighty one.

I think someone's missing a patient right now...LOL!
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:42 PM
 
14,253 posts, read 14,832,491 times
Reputation: 13627
Nevertheless, this government is rewriting commercial law on the fly. Look at the way secured creditors in Chrysler are getting treated. It isn't legal and it isn't constitutional.

Forget about asking Sotomayor questions about Roe v Wade or Affirmative Action. Where does she stand on the legality of what this administration is doing to established bankruptcy law?

Chrysler‚€™s Greedy Hedge Fund Holdouts Get It Right: Ann Woolner - Bloomberg.com

Last edited by Jaggy001; 05-28-2009 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Georgia, on the Florida line, right above Tallahassee
10,473 posts, read 13,478,769 times
Reputation: 6346
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
With a name like traderX, do I have an expectation of effecting your adoration for the mantra of creating faux wealth out of the action of trading paper back and forth real fast? Of course not. Furthermore, if I were to rely on the public education system to prepare me to critically think, particularly to argue against the very system that subsidizes it, well that would be an impossibility.

Your very belief in the viability of the market in its current form is based on the willingness of the pawns (the proletariat, of which you actually belong to as well) to substantiate the system. I ask of you, who's gonna buy your paper when this thing pops wide open? Not me. I find it hilarious when people attempt to distinguish between Madoff and the market in general. The architecture is identical. The orders of magnitude may vary, but it is the architecture what makes it a ponzi scheme. That you disagree is just that, your opinion. But your mercantilism doesn't make you enlightened, nor gives you a clue...meh.
I had a report on George Washington one time. I started it out, "George Washington was a traitor."

Well, he was, in a strict sense of the word. I then went into a history of George Washington, as seen from the British side. I dare say, it wasn't what they expected. Perhaps it is because I am part Native American, and while White folks (I'm 15/16th white) might not care, a lot of native Americans really hated when we showed up. Americans fought tyranny and injustice! And took the land from Natives and made them walk the trail of tears. Oh, it's sad. It's hypocritical. It's America. I think we've come a long way since then, though. And it beats the pants off of most any other country out there.

Who's the highest ranking person in the U.S. military?
A hint. He's elected. Yes, our President is also the military's leader.
A lot of people don't realize that. The U.S. is a miltary regime. It's a nice, well ordered, kind-of democratic military regime, but it's still a military regime. Our constitution specifies the requirements of our regime, and it names the President as Commander in Chief.

Do you think you are free? If the police show up tonight and want to take you...can you say, "No." As I told my wife a long time ago, the police can show up and do pretty much anything they want to. You think you are free. It's an illusion. Sometimes, the illusion breaks down. But, on the whole, it's a grand illusion, isn't it?
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: So Cal
90 posts, read 494,169 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ford View Post
I had a report on George Washington one time. I started it out, "George Washington was a traitor."

Well, he was, in a strict sense of the word. I then went into a history of George Washington, as seen from the British side. I dare say, it wasn't what they expected. Perhaps it is because I am part Native American, and while White folks (I'm 15/16th white) might not care, a lot of native Americans really hated when we showed up. Americans fought tyranny and injustice! And took the land from Natives and made them walk the trail of tears. Oh, it's sad. It's hypocritical. It's America. I think we've come a long way since then, though. And it beats the pants off of most any other country out there.

Who's the highest ranking person in the U.S. military?
A hint. He's elected. Yes, our President is also the military's leader.
A lot of people don't realize that. The U.S. is a miltary regime. It's a nice, well ordered, kind-of democratic military regime, but it's still a military regime. Our constitution specifies the requirements of our regime, and it names the President as Commander in Chief.

Do you think you are free? If the police show up tonight and want to take you...can you say, "No." As I told my wife a long time ago, the police can show up and do pretty much anything they want to. You think you are free. It's an illusion. Sometimes, the illusion breaks down. But, on the whole, it's a grand illusion, isn't it?
Nice post
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:14 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,453,717 times
Reputation: 17990
well/yes i do since the president is commander and chiaf while never having been a member of the military necessairily.They may have gotten the chief part from the natice americans. indains fouhgt each other long befoire the white eneter the frey. The pooice also do not decide what they do look at the law. theyhave no person vote. Thier are alot of illusions but the real illusion is when the laws are not followed and to think you are cibilized.Free does mean free to do what you want or thing best ;that is more anarchy.
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:55 AM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,827,513 times
Reputation: 4451
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ford View Post
I had a report on George Washington one time. I started it out, "George Washington was a traitor."

Well, he was, in a strict sense of the word. I then went into a history of George Washington, as seen from the British side. I dare say, it wasn't what they expected. Perhaps it is because I am part Native American, and while White folks (I'm 15/16th white) might not care, a lot of native Americans really hated when we showed up. Americans fought tyranny and injustice! And took the land from Natives and made them walk the trail of tears. Oh, it's sad. It's hypocritical. It's America. I think we've come a long way since then, though. And it beats the pants off of most any other country out there.

Who's the highest ranking person in the U.S. military?
A hint. He's elected. Yes, our President is also the military's leader.
A lot of people don't realize that. The U.S. is a miltary regime. It's a nice, well ordered, kind-of democratic military regime, but it's still a military regime. Our constitution specifies the requirements of our regime, and it names the President as Commander in Chief.

Do you think you are free? If the police show up tonight and want to take you...can you say, "No." As I told my wife a long time ago, the police can show up and do pretty much anything they want to. You think you are free. It's an illusion. Sometimes, the illusion breaks down. But, on the whole, it's a grand illusion, isn't it?
our constitution has already been shattered:
No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
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