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Ultrarunner - I'm not sure where in Texas your friend built a home with no permits or design reviews.
Permits are required in any major area of Texas I'm aware of. It could be a city or county government that manages that process. As for design reviews - that is highly variable. Some smaller cities may have rules about that - but it is largely an issue of homeowner's associations. I cannot imagine a large city with the staff to handle such a process.
As for property taxes - I personally detest the concept. I have a hard time accepting a tax when no commerce has occurred. No sale, no income earned, etc. Yet the reliance on property taxes probably has helped to stablize Texas' revenue. Our tax revenues are somewhat stable vs income-based taxes. And even though our property taxes are typically 2-3% the actual out of pocket is likely no different than in California because of much lower taxable values.
Annual increases in property taxes moderated by a 10% rule that limits the increase in taxable value.
Ultrarunner - I'm not sure where in Texas your friend built a home with no permits or design reviews.
Permits are required in any major area of Texas I'm aware of. It could be a city or county government that manages that process. As for design reviews - that is highly variable. Some smaller cities may have rules about that - but it is largely an issue of homeowners associations. I cannot imagine a large city with the staff to handle such a process.
As for property taxes - I personally detest the concept. I have a hard time accepting a tax when no commerce has occurred. No sale, no income earned, etc. Yet the reliance on property taxes probably has helped to stabilize Texas' revenue. Our tax revenues are somewhat stable vs income-based taxes. And even though our property taxes are typically 2-3% the actual out of pocket is likely no different than in California because of much lower taxable values.
Annual increases in property taxes moderated by a 10% rule that limits the increase in taxable value.
The nearest large population center is Tyler Texas... and he is a licensed Contractor in Texas with the land zoned AG... He has built quite a place and taxes are quite reasonable because of the AG zoning... I believe he started with 220 acres and sold off a portion to build his home...
Amazing all the out buildings he constructed in addition to his home... also without any design review... I don't think there's a Homeowners Association for many miles in any direction... all neighbors are ranchers with much larger acreage.
He did mention the County Tax Assessor makes visits to make sure the record is up to date and he said Septic Systems now have much more oversight since he put his in...
If we are going to start a conversation about the older generation paying for schools that their children no longer use then how about a similar conversation about the younger generation paying for Social Security and Medicare that they don't use yet and probably won't be there when they retire?
The younger generation always has its schools "subsidized" (so to speak) by the older generation who in turn has its health care and retirement income "subsidized" by those younger.
Or paying for schools when you don't have any children... out of 17 neighbors on my street between 60 to 102 years old... 9 have no children, 5 have a single child and 2 of the remaining have 2 and one has 3...
As far as roads... we all pay quarterly assessments for road maintenance... the city was supposed to take them over back in 1950 and reneged... something about the city requiring curbs after the original design was approved and the roads were going in...
Can't really comment on Social Security... for most, we have no choice... and others have paid into the system and are bared from collection because of some goverment pension offset that I don't quite understand...
No one in my family retires... except for my Mom... Grandparents and Father continued working well into their 70's and 80's... my Step Grandfather refused to take Social Security... he said this country gave him opportunities he never dreamed possible... he work until the year he passed away and because of that, my Grandmother had a good sized check when she started collection at age 75 after her husband passed... my Father died in his 70's and also deferred his social security... no one in my family has ever drawn a pension... we all work... must be the old German Heritage. Dad saw so many friends rapidly deteriorate once they retired... and he said that wasn't going to be him.
In the 1970's there was lots of talk that Social Security wouldn't be there and that those under 45 would never see a penny... I really don't know what the future holds... but I can assure you, my Godfather, an engineer at Lockheed went on and on about how would never see a penny of it... he's 75 and no longer complains...
My brothers and I attended Catholic school... I was one of 51 children in my 5th grade class with one Nun who turned 70 that year... So my parents at my Mom's insistence paid tuition paid for by Mom working...
I think vouchers for school is the only thing that has a chance to level the playing field... Oakland Public Schools spend around 14k per student per year... double what the Catholic schools charge...
Prop 13 is the Law of the Land and it has been a hard felt battle to make it that way... I know from my local goverment that any amount of money will never be enough... at least we have Prop 13 keeping a lid on one Tax... and taking the control out of the hands of the Tax Assessor.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 07-27-2009 at 09:49 AM..
Even at the time it passed, the talk was how renter's pushed it over the top...
I have no idea how many renters voted for it, but it passed with a 2/3 majority or so and there were around 2/3 majority property owners so its at least possible that no renters voted for it.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
I had a teacher and family members that immediately had rent reduced post Prop 13...
I'm sure some particular areas saw short term declines, but over time it becomes a longer and longer subsidy for landlords. Rents today are certainly not cheap by any measure.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Fundamentally, he said the entire appraisal system is flawed... It matters not what someone paid for a property yesterday, last week or last year because those properties are no longer on the market...
Real estate is sticky, so comps from the last 6 months or so do give you a pretty accurate view of value. Appraisals are more problematic in more rural areas though. But this is why I suggest the appraised value for tax purposes be based on a 36~48/month moving average. This would smooth out a lot of the short term noise and give a good deal of stability for both the state and property owners, but over time it would allow properties to appraise for their true value.
You keep using the fact that people may have to move because of the increase taxes as an argument for Prop 13. But this is part of the reason why higher property taxes will moderate the housing market! As people move, it will increase the supply of homes and hence moderate the prices.
Sure, its unfortunate for the people that have to move, but what is the alternative? A housing market that behaves like the stock market?
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
I've heard it said many times that high property tax is akin to rent paid to the state and if you get behind... you get evicted...
Again reason why property taxes are better than income taxes. They are harder to cheat and it gives the state something to seize if they are consistently not paid.
It takes years of non-payment for the state to push your home into foreclosure though.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Education is a top expenditure item and Retirees use of public education is minuscule...
Yes, but there are almost double the number of people (~80 million) between 5~24 than people 60+ (~45 million) so that is perfectly natural.
The point remains, people use different level of services during different points in their life. The system only works because pay taxes when you are both using services and not using them.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
At least we still have Prop 13... otherwise we might as well turn out the lights and call it quits...
But Prop 13 is one of the reasons why the costs are so high in the state and why businesses are leaving. Prop 13 is just age-warfare and many of your comments are along those lines. California is going to bleed young middle-class families and businesses until it stops trying to tax them to death. But the only way to lower the taxes on this group is to raise them for other groups.
If Prop 13 is a windfall for business...how can it be responsible for business leaving the State?
I think part of the problem is some people... quite a few where I live pay no taxes... at least no property taxes or income taxes... the only tax that amounts to anything is Sales Tax.
The underground economy is flourishing and your right... property owners are stuck or like I like to say... "Sitting Ducks" When you own property, you have roots and you have something tangible...
Maybe, some of my retired friends have it right after all?
Several have sold their homes and live a Nomadic Life... several live on Sailboats berthed in SF Bay part of the years and several have very expensive Motor Homes registered in OR and travel all year long... if mobility is good and repealing Prop 13 will mean more people on the go... maybe my freinds and acquaintances are ahead of the curve?
Owning Land is a burden to hold on to it... laws and regulations no dreamed of a few years ago are now the law of the land and if one isn't carefull, it is easier than ever before to run afoul of the law...
Maybe the answer is to embrace the nomadic lifestyle and never put down roots?
Seems to me people in Tennessee, Mississippi, and Texas are more worried about California than California. It is the 8th largest economy in the World and well over 25% of the US Economy. It isn't going anywhere and even now has more worth than any other state.
Seems to me people in Tennessee, Mississippi, and Texas are more worried about California than California. It is the 8th largest economy in the World and well over 25% of the US Economy. It isn't going anywhere and even now has more worth than any other state.
Because California is exporting their people to our states and the California mentality that got it in the position it's in today is probably coming with them.
If Prop 13 is a windfall for business...how can it be responsible for business leaving the State?
I've never suggested its a windfall for business, that is something you believe. Prop 13 is not a windfall for productive business, most small productive business do not even own property. Prop 13 has been bad for business because it caused taxes to shift from property to its income.
Prop 13 did not lower the tax burden, it simply shifted it over time to other parties.
Seems to me people in Tennessee, Mississippi, and Texas are more worried about California than California. It is the 8th largest economy in the World and well over 25% of the US Economy. It isn't going anywhere and even now has more worth than any other state.
People from more conservative states love to hate California. They think it demonstrates that liberal policies do not work etc. But in reality, California is not hurting because its more liberal, but rather because it has policies that are neither conservative or liberal. Its an insistent patch work of junk policies from both sides.
California's willingness to spend money, coupled with an irrational tax system, leads to its problems.
All of the above caused by a nearly insane legislature and willingness of voters to spend money on popular (but financially unsound) programs.
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