20 reasons why the US economy is dying and is simply not going to recover. (loan, expenses)

[floridasandy]

Originally Posted by user_id

Firstly the idea that "jobs are all overseas" is just hyperbole. The vast majority of Americans still have jobs even right now. Secondly, your standard worker is not going to be the one innovating...rather the entrepreneur. The your average worker can work hard though and can try to contribute to his/her community and nation.


No, its not. All sorts of things are made in the US and more can be made if there is a will to do so.

Furthermore, industrial jobs are not the only sorts of jobs. Fewer and fewer are going to work in these sorts of jobs going forward due to technological innovation.

just to give an idea of our population to employment ratio here is a little chart:
Chart Junkie: Employment-to-Population Ratio | Wall St. Cheat Sheet

your average worker in the US is now competing with 26 million other average workers in the US and it isn't getting better.

[lumbollo]

Originally Posted by user_id

.... The vast majority of Americans still have jobs even right now.......

Do you have some numerical statistics to prove this? Currently there are ~ 310,000,000 Americans. A "vast majority" would imply something on the order of 75% or greater though I admit your hyperbole is subjective. None the less this would say there are 232M workers in this country using your definition. Assuming these workers are not depending upon others or the federal government, that would also assume they are making a living wage. I don't think so.

So please provide your figures that backs up your statement.

[lumbollo]

Originally Posted by user_id

My assertion was that those making minimum wage are are generally lower on the intelligence scale and are therefore not likely to produce innovative ideas.

.....I mean if you want the studies I'm sure I can find them in a few seconds...but really?

Yeah really. I would like to see this bit of information. You state a lot of "facts" from a lot of assumptions where you are just plain wrong, lack understanding, and cherry pick websites to fit your view of the universe. So please yes, provide some facts to back up your claim that minimum wages workers are generally lower on the intelligence scale. With that, I also would like to know what qualifies you to judge intelligence and why you went out, before this topic, to read studies on worker intelligence vs pay.

Even though you rarely provide anything credible to back what you claim as fact, I do give you credit for being able to completely to turn a topic into a train wreck. Intelligence and Population have nothing to do with the OP. You first responded by saying the article the OP posted was gibberish and that it could all be solved by "hard work". I saw no gibberish in that article, I don't agree with some of it, but the answers to the failure of this economy doesn't have anything to do at this point by lack of hard work or intelligence in this country. I expect no meaningful debate from you on this, so you don't need to answer either of my posts as I probably won't bother to read this topic again. You have already taken it down so I guess your job is done.

[John23]

There are some good points there.

-But, the US media is so moronic! Instead of saying stuff like, "discouraged workers", or unemployed over 27 weeks, or breaking out unemployment into so many bits (so you don't get the full picture), they should just say...the US is really like Europe. We have a shiny brand name, "The United States". We have a lot of slogans that attract people. But under the surface, we look like ugly Europe with 12% unemployment. We like to laugh at them and their chronically high unemployment, but the difference between them and us, is they count everyone. We play games so we don't count everyone. We have to lesson the pain by breaking it up into small bits.

-The real story is we're turning into Europe, and european socialism. It mirrors slide #3, the mean duration of unemployment has gone up since the 50's and 60's. Socialism, equality for all, thats been the policy for the last few decades. You can't have everything.You can't have continuous low unemployment and high growth by handing things out to more and more people each year.

-But mostly, those points are soundbites and they're almost carbon copies of what a politican would say. Slide #9, more food stamp recipients. That's what's replaced the food lines of the 30's. "Food stamps" is just a nice modern word for a soup kitchen. It hides a lot of pain.

-Bankruptcies are mostly overstated. A high percentage of those are either medical related or real estare/mortgage related. You can only declare bankruptcy if you owe more than what you're worth. Blame chart #10 on the healthcare crisis and relaxed lending standards/real estate bubble since the late 90's.

-Out of all the important "points" on that page, pictures and soundbites have replaced hard facts and analysis. It mirrors the general dumbing down of the culture. We live in a picture and image society. We only know what the pictures and images say. It makes you very weak and uninformed. In school, they should be teaching kids, say no to pictures and images! Learn the truth behind every picture and image, then you'll be informed. Do some hard reading. Seeing Bernanke or Schwartzeneggers face does nothing for the average person. Bernanke was Time Magazines person of the year!! Its all a joke.

[Grandpa Pipes]

m

Originally Posted by user_id

That was not my assertion. My assertion was that those making minimum wage are are generally lower on the intelligence scale and are therefore not likely to produce innovative ideas.

So since you're not questioning that intelligence and salary are correlated, the issue is that you want me to supply studies that show that innovation is linked to intelligence? Seriously? I mean if you want the studies I'm sure I can find them in a few seconds...but really?

Ok then how do you explain that many people with a college degree inhabit the ranks of the minimum wage work force?

Also what's up with this bit of arrogance...."intelligence and salary are correlated" ?

[70Ford]

I'm actually counting on all those ALT A's to make Seattle housing more affordable again. The run up on housing there was insane. Steady rises.. but income didn't rise with it. Something I read a long time ago made me ponder it. I read it on some web site, but the fellow was a loan officer and stated that 70 percent of the loans (this is from memory, so bear with) were ALT A's. Seattle's (Washington's) banking system is collapsing under the weight of bad loans, too.

From Seattle buble.

03.01.2002Deed of Trust$12,528
03.07.2002Deed of Trust$82,787
06.21.2002Deed of Trust$17,973
08.15.2002Deed of Trust$20,263
03.31.2003Deed of Trust$118,000
10.07.2003Deed of Trust$6,680
11.25.2003Deed of Trust$8,752
07.22.2004Deed of Trust$18,653
05.02.2005Deed of Trust$23,461
09.27.2005Deed of Trust$28,457
01.23.2006Deed of Trust$159,820
02.08.2006Deed of Trust$10,458
03.17.2006Deed of Trust$15,401
11.03.2006Deed of Trust$30,982
12.19.2006Deed of Trust$41,976
11.24.2008Notice of Trustee Sale$157,544
07.07.2009Trustee Deed$159,820


15 refinances in 5 years, followed by a foreclosure. That's awesome.

[Lincolnian]

It is not a problem of opportunity but desire. Too many people are not interested in hard work, physical and/or mental. American schools provide opportunities to get ahead and we have the finest post secondary system in the world. However, college enrollment is on the decline for males and science, mathematics, and engineering programs are under-represented by American students. Many of the students taking classes in science, mathematics, and engineering are foreign students studying in the U.S. Sadly, most of these students receive their fine education here and return home after graduation to build up their own countriies leading to the erosion of America's ability to compete in the future.

Reality television stars and the popularized life-styles of bizarre celebrities appear to be of greater interest to today's youths (as well as many adults) than inquisitiveness, persistence, and commitment to hard work.

The answer requires a societal culture shift. As Teddy Roosevelt once said, "The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life."

[chuck22b]

Actually from the list, quite a few of them are short term problems (ie bankruptcies, loan delinquencies, etc.)... after a few years, loan performance would actually improve as lending standards have actually abnormally tightened in the last few years. All those re-finances... yes, that's Real savings for quite a large segment of the population.

What about the chart that shows savings rates increases? Household debt shrinking? Factory utilization increasing?

Vice versa, more people who default also means more debt washed away from households - which increases purchasing power... housing would definitely become cheaper... increasing affordability.... increasing labor cost parity with developing nations (we're actually among the cheapest of the developed nations).

Things will balance out in the mid/long run... if things get cheaper here, and all the jobs are elsewhere..... things get more expensive elsewhere as living standards, currencies, and demand grows... and then jobs come back... even some production oriented jobs may come back.

Mostly though, technology is a far more potent force than outsourcing in regards to employment. And repetitive onerous work that can be replaced by robotics or cheap labor will not cut it. Innovate yourself, educate, train, self-sustain, be up to date in your respective fields, find new ways to do things.

As far as user_ids' working harder? I'd have to say this also points towards pensions and baby boomer retirees... Yes, we ALL will have to work harder... and LONGER. So, that solves a lof of the retiree and benefits issues. Working longer, retiring later... can shore up a lot of predicted shortfalls.

So, not the end for America... hopefully a new beginning... albeit a tough beginning. We're all waking up from a hangover that has lasted decades. Are we going to drink more and give up... or rise to the challenge is remained to be seen...

-chuck22b

[user_id]

Originally Posted by lumbollo

Do you have some numerical statistics to prove this? Currently there are ~ 310,000,000 Americans.

I'm speaking about working age adults, not the entire population. That should be pretty obvious.....

Originally Posted by lumbollo

So please provide your figures that backs up your statement.

The statistics are released every month, even if you look at more board measures the majority are still employed full time. I'm sure you can find the link.

In terms of the link between intelligence and pay, not even going to bother with that.

[gardener34]

"However, college enrollment is on the decline for males and science, mathematics, and engineering programs are under-represented by American students.

yes because why would a college student go into debt for thousands when they know when they get out they are in a field where the preferred employee of the large corporations is a cheap labor H1B. It is sad...