Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, they left out two major reasons our economy will never recover:
Third World immigration is changing the character of 'The American People'. We used to have a great mix...maybe the best there ever was. But politicians, corporations, and do-gooders, couldn't leave well enough alone. They had to import people from places not known for industriousness, honesty, or smarts. Now, our collective IQ is plummeting, and personal traits like honesty and restraint are becoming things of the past. The American People built America. The New American People probably can't rebuild it.
I'm sorry Indians, Asians, and Hispanics are taking your jobs. Dumbass.
Yes everyone is a resource and as with all resources there is the issue of how hard it is to replace. Tech employees, especially the higher up ones, are not easy to replace. They are the live blood of the company and these companies are well aware of it.
But of course companies are not going to go out of their way to keep employees that they can easily replace. Why in the world would they? They are not charities.
Huh? Tell that to my old employer, a large multinational. One of their first "cost cutting" measures (because although we were turning a profit in 08 and 09, they weren't large enough) was to ****can half the engineers (including myself) and sales force. Just so they can meet analysts' expectations for the next few quarters. That's some great long term vision there
Then you aren't looking.
Do you seriously think that the US contains the top talent in every field and in every case? Some areas of technology are highly specialized and the number of people that know what they are doing is rather limited. These are not things that say ex-mortgage brokers can learn by taking a few night classes. These are things that take years to learn and years to demonstrate that you're actually knowledgeable. It would hurt US industry if it could not import talent from other countries.
Almost half of US university professors are foreign born. US does not have a monopoly on talent/intelligence and preventing the flow of human capital into the country would greatly hurt the country.
Anyhow, people love scapegoats. American's problems have nothing to do with the American people, its all the politicians, the foreigners, etc. Its rather comedic really.
I think you're living on some dream world and not in touch with technology fields at all - either in academia or in private industry. I'm guessing you've never worked in any of these fields.
I'll tell it from a perspective of someone who has come from India when he was very young, got his citizenship later on, but still in touch with enough Indians to know the realities for both citizens and immigrants. America actually has its fair share of scientists and engineers. It's a myth created by the media, major corporations, and politicians that there is a techie shortage here. I am (was?) an engineer who recently got laid off. There are many newly minted graduates who are in the same shoes I'm in right now. It has become EXTREMELY HARD to find entry level work a monkey can do, because many of these jobs have been outsourced. ABET accredited engineers are bright people who can pick up a variety of skill in a matter of weeks. You really can't use the argument that some jobs are too specialized and we need to import workers for a skillset that maybe 5-10 people in the world have, simply because engineers can pick up these skills fairly easily. It's bull**** spouted by corporations to justify fattening their margins.
The truth is many of these scientists and engineers move on to different things (most not voluntarily) because in 80% of the cases, it's simply a dead end job. The vast majority of scientists are stuck in "the post doc" trap with no chance of ever getting on tenure track. After years of working 80 hours weeks on a stipend to get their PhD, they're pulling in maybe 35-40k by the time they're 40. I recently read a statistic where for every 10 PhDs, there's one position avail for tenure track
Engineering is not much better. It often provides a solid income straight out of school, but the benefits of being one shortly decline after that. Of course this falls on HR's deaf ears. It's not a matter of talent or skill, it's a matter of money and dollars. Many of these jobs have went back to my home country, ironically. When a bowl of rice and a haircut are the equivalent of 30 cents in India, it is simply impossible to compete with wages that are $15k-20k over there, which can actually provide a pretty good standard of living over there. To them there's no point in paying an American engineer 50-60k. Wage, cost of living, and currency purchasing power discrepancies are the reasons behind all of this
America's perceived disadvantage in science and math is a myth. You guys breed a lot of dumb people, but there are also many smart ones with talents wasted which go towards unproductive sectors of society. Truth is you guys have been sold out by the powers to be a long time ago. There is little incentive to go into science and math. When the day comes where standards of living in India and China rise to the point where they feel no need to come here, there will be a large hole in scientific innovation for America. Why on earth would I tell my kids to become a scientist or engineer so they can do twice the work that maybe 5% of the population are capable of doing, work twice the hours, for half the pay in fields such as law, finance, pharmacy, or medicine? It's not that Americans aren't talented in these fields at all, it's that your priorities are all screwed up and you reward the people who decide how the wealth pie should be carved up; which aren't the same people who create the wealth pie in the first place.
Unfortunately I would have a difficult time moving back to India as I came here when I was 3. Most of my friends are Americans. I don't know Hindi, I don't eat their food, not familiar with most of their customs, etc.
One of their first "cost cutting" measures (because although we were turning a profit in 08 and 09, they weren't large enough) was to ****can half the engineers (including myself) and sales force. Just so they can meet analysts' expectations for the next few quarters. That's some great long term vision there
You can always find examples of businesses doing stupid things for short term gains, but these businesses usually go bankrupt or otherwise become irrelevant sooner or later. But there are also cases where there is simply too much fat and people need to be laid off. The company will keep its top talent though, getting rid of them would be committing suicide.
Anyhow, a lot of the rants against corporations, the doom gloom stuff, etc remains me of a spoiled kid. Americans are starting to have to work for their standard of living instead of siphoning wealth from other nations. The *** is up, time to get out the hammer and get back to real work. Oh wait, the union called they want a 10% raise for all employees and retirement at 50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanman72
I think you're living on some dream world and not in touch with technology fields at all - either in academia or in private industry. I'm guessing you've never worked in any of these fields.
I like it when people start their rants with petty personal attacks, you know you don't have to bother reading the rest of it.
I think you're living on some dream world and not in touch with technology fields at all - either in academia or in private industry. I'm guessing you've never worked in any of these fields.
I'll tell it from a perspective of someone who has come from India when he was very young, got his citizenship later on, but still in touch with enough Indians to know the realities for both citizens and immigrants. America actually has its fair share of scientists and engineers. It's a myth created by the media, major corporations, and politicians that there is a techie shortage here. I am (was?) an engineer who recently got laid off. There are many newly minted graduates who are in the same shoes I'm in right now. It has become EXTREMELY HARD to find entry level work a monkey can do, because many of these jobs have been outsourced. ABET accredited engineers are bright people who can pick up a variety of skill in a matter of weeks. You really can't use the argument that some jobs are too specialized and we need to import workers for a skillset that maybe 5-10 people in the world have, simply because engineers can pick up these skills fairly easily. It's bull**** spouted by corporations to justify fattening their margins.
The truth is many of these scientists and engineers move on to different things (most not voluntarily) because in 80% of the cases, it's simply a dead end job. The vast majority of scientists are stuck in "the post doc" trap with no chance of ever getting on tenure track. After years of working 80 hours weeks on a stipend to get their PhD, they're pulling in maybe 35-40k by the time they're 40. I recently read a statistic where for every 10 PhDs, there's one position avail for tenure track
Engineering is not much better. It often provides a solid income straight out of school, but the benefits of being one shortly decline after that. Of course this falls on HR's deaf ears. It's not a matter of talent or skill, it's a matter of money and dollars. Many of these jobs have went back to my home country, ironically. When a bowl of rice and a haircut are the equivalent of 30 cents in India, it is simply impossible to compete with wages that are $15k-20k over there, which can actually provide a pretty good standard of living over there. To them there's no point in paying an American engineer 50-60k. Wage, cost of living, and currency purchasing power discrepancies are the reasons behind all of this
America's perceived disadvantage in science and math is a myth. You guys breed a lot of dumb people, but there are also many smart ones with talents wasted which go towards unproductive sectors of society. Truth is you guys have been sold out by the powers to be a long time ago. There is little incentive to go into science and math. When the day comes where standards of living in India and China rise to the point where they feel no need to come here, there will be a large hole in scientific innovation for America. Why on earth would I tell my kids to become a scientist or engineer so they can do twice the work that maybe 5% of the population are capable of doing, work twice the hours, for half the pay in fields such as law, finance, pharmacy, or medicine? It's not that Americans aren't talented in these fields at all, it's that your priorities are all screwed up and you reward the people who decide how the wealth pie should be carved up; which aren't the same people who create the wealth pie in the first place.
Unfortunately I would have a difficult time moving back to India as I came here when I was 3. Most of my friends are Americans. I don't know Hindi, I don't eat their food, not familiar with most of their customs, etc.
Spot on. Brilliant post on the scathing review of engineering and science fields in America, and the supposed brain shortage. To reiterate: There's no shortage of engineers and scientists, there's just a shortage of engineers and scientists willing to forego their lifetimes and break their backs to do drudge work for peanuts when one can go make peanuts for half the effort and time at your proverbial service economy crap job. Vocational interest does NOT come before economic interest, particularly when said wages are not even one sigma above the cost of living line.
Once again, well said fanman. As somebody sitting on two aerospace engineering degrees myself can attest to, when others bemoan me about the fact that foreigners are taking science jobs and we aren't fostering the vectoring of our youth into science careers, my position is very clear: Screw it, they can have the job. I didn't get into this rat race to end up working in a 7-year shelf life job, de facto freelance work industry for 40-60K a year tap out. And I certainly didn't get into this rat race to chase THAT job around the world, away from my family, my values and my cultural construct. And considering that holding a technical education is still in the minority of the american proletariat, nobody can really tell me boo about it. You want to change the dynamics, you get the degrees and try some of that crap pie, otherwise quit moaning about the science gap myth.
Screwed up priorities is right, our economy fosters the overcompensation of the unproductive (financials et al), and it will lead to our eventual irrelevance in the global economic spectrum. It will certainly be a tough pill to swallow for americans accustomed to a certain quality of life that will be downgraded by the emergence of population centers like India and China in 30 years time.
Last edited by hindsight2020; 02-15-2010 at 10:52 AM..
You can always find examples of businesses doing stupid things for short term gains, but these businesses usually go bankrupt or otherwise become irrelevant sooner or later. But there are also cases where there is simply too much fat and people need to be laid off. The company will keep its top talent though, getting rid of them would be committing suicide.
Anyhow, a lot of the rants against corporations, the doom gloom stuff, etc remains me of a spoiled kid. Americans are starting to have to work for their standard of living instead of siphoning wealth from other nations. The *** is up, time to get out the hammer and get back to real work. Oh wait, the union called they want a 10% raise for all employees and retirement at 50.
I like it when people start their rants with petty personal attacks, you know you don't have to bother reading the rest of it.
I don't like "THE WORLD IS FALLING" doom and gloom talk myself. I believe we can get out of this. But the reality is, if you're not acknowledging we have some serious fundamental problems here, you're deluding yourself
I believe we can get out of this. But the reality is, if you're not acknowledging we have some serious fundamental problems here, you're deluding yourself
There are problems, but the problems are not foreigners, H1B programs, big corporations, etc. All of these things have existed in this country since its inception. There has always been some degree of conflict between new and old stock Americans, but the the old stock tends to lash out at the new stock when things are going badly. In today's world the distinction between new and old stock is often correlated with a distinction in race which adds fuel to the fire (i.e., many new Americans are not white).
The real question is whether Americans are going to continue to scapegoat and blame other people, big corporations, etc for their decline or whether they are going to start looking inward.
There are problems, but the problems are not foreigners, H1B programs, big corporations, etc. All of these things have existed in this country since its inception. There has always been some degree of conflict between new and old stock Americans, but the the old stock tends to lash out at the new stock when things are going badly. In today's world the distinction between new and old stock is often correlated with a distinction in race which adds fuel to the fire (i.e., many new Americans are not white).
The real question is whether Americans are going to continue to scapegoat and blame other people, big corporations, etc for their decline or whether they are going to start looking inward.
I agree with that. I'm a foreigner myself although legally an American now, as I've gotten my citizenship over 10 years ago. It's silly to think someone "deserves" a job just by virtue of being born American. Globalization is inevitable, but hopefully standards of living and wages will rise in India and China to the point where this no longer becomes an issue. Protectionist measures are pretty short sighted and only help the employment situation for a few years, but long term hurt the country as it puts up artificial barriers to competitiveness. The real problems lie in the emphasis on short term results both by corporations and the government. Also the focus on unproductive areas of society such as legal and financial services, in addition to the dollar's purchasing power and the standard cost of living. Inflating the dollar will have its perks, you know.... The fact that corporate America has no interest in training eager, young, inexperienced intelligent American engineers spells trouble down the road.
but hopefully standards of living and wages will rise in India and China to the point where this no longer becomes an issue.
This is not necessary. In popular opinion people have this notion that companies can unlimitedly out-source their labor to countries with lower labor costs, but this does not work in reality. US companies have US dollars, not rupees. The worker in India is only going to work for the US companies if there is someone else that is willing to exchange his rupees for dollars. If such a person does not exist than the US dollar offered by the US corporation is as good as toilet paper (actually...would not even work well for that!) and would not be expected in exchange for labor.
The point being, so long as countries freely flow their currencies against each other the labor costs and standards of living don't need to be similar. The number of jobs that can be out-sourced by US companies to lower wage countries will be directly proportional to the amount of US products/services consumed by these countries.
Now, some countries don't want to float their currencies and this will distort the labor market. Blaming on the outsourcing problem on US companies is like killing the messenger, they are not the ultimate source of the problem. Rather countries like China, India, etc that will not allow their currencies to freely float against the dollar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanman72
Protectionist measures are pretty short sighted and only help the employment situation for a few years, but long term hurt the country as it puts up artificial barriers to competitiveness. The real problems lie in the emphasis on short term results both by corporations and the government.
The problem is not businesses focusing on short term results, that is part of business. A business that only had a long term focus would fail, businesses need cash-flow, earnings, etc today as well as tomorrow. This idea that US corporations are all misguided and short-sighted is just odd, in some cases these corporations are over hundred years old!
Free trade is great when nations truly pursue it...not so great when nations, like China and India, are committed to corruption and manipulation.
I'm sorry Indians, Asians, and Hispanics are taking your jobs. Dumbass.
it is a shame that you don't have any sympathy for the situation that many americans are facing, especially since you post about your own recent layoff.
it is hard for people to compete when there isn't a level playing field and all of these bogus "trade" agreements, government regulations, and currency manipulations do not exactly create a fair playing field for workers. (add to that, the additional burden of being expected to bail out some dishonest stock market manipulators.)
the only good news for us on the horizon is that the dollar is gaining some traction due to the instability of the euro. capital goes where it is welcome /safe and a stable currency would certainly be a step in the right direction for the united states.
Last edited by floridasandy; 02-16-2010 at 05:15 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As somebody sitting on two aerospace engineering degrees myself can attest to, when others bemoan me about the fact that foreigners are taking science jobs and we aren't fostering the vectoring of our youth into science careers, my position is very clear: Screw it, they can have the job. I didn't get into this rat race to end up working in a 7-year shelf life job, de facto freelance work industry for 40-60K a year tap out. And I certainly didn't get into this rat race to chase THAT job around the world, away from my family, my values and my cultural construct. And considering that holding a technical education is still in the minority of the american proletariat, nobody can really tell me boo about it. You want to change the dynamics, you get the degrees and try some of that crap pie, otherwise quit moaning about the science gap myth.
