Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm a pretty open-minded person and tend not to generalize, but I agree with most of your post... My parents were liberal, hippy professors who fully believed in how socialism and communism could save society and often tried to convert others to this thinking. (I rebelled and became a capitalist). They, and the majority of their cohorts, came from wealthy parents. They could live off of the inheritance as they preached the value of socialism to others. As you say, many had become "angry, lazy, indignant" against the ideals of hard-work, self-sacrifice, and capitalism that had led to their parents success. The ideals that had given them the financial freedom to pursue their own agenda...
I am from a poor family, my parents came from poorer familes, and did nothing but bust their ass their whole lives, and Ive done nothing but bust my ass for my life so far. What is the result? We have made other people a whole lot of money, but my parents only have achieved a modest life style from penny pinching and scrimping, and dispite having better qualifications then my parents did at my age, I am doing worse, and have less.
So, not everyone is "lazy", however, they probably are all very angry, as they should be. The poor and working classes have been turning over more and more of their wealth to the rich for decades. It needs to stop.
I am from a poor family, my parents came from poorer familes, and did nothing but bust their ass their whole lives, and Ive done nothing but bust my ass for my life so far. What is the result? We have made other people a whole lot of money, but my parents only have achieved a modest life style from penny pinching and scrimping, and dispite having better qualifications then my parents did at my age, I am doing worse, and have less.
So, not everyone is "lazy", however, they probably are all very angry, as they should be. The poor and working classes have been turning over more and more of their wealth to the rich for decades. It needs to stop.
While I don't agree with some of your beliefs on gov't, I feel for you and agree with some of what you said in the first paragraph. It really sucks to work hard just to make some VP in a marble office rich. However, there are things you can do about it.
Instead of working at a company with a fixed salary, how about starting your own business? Yes, the risks are greater - but the sky's the limit. Also, what about working for companies with larger performance based incentives for great work, like bonuses, company stock, or stock options? This might not be the norm anymore, but there are definitely still places like that out there.
Yes, some people are basically wage-slaves and put in tons of work for next to nothing. That's not necessarily fair and it's very debatable. On the flip side, a more free-market country will allow options where this does not always have to be the case. If a person wants to settle for this environment, great, more power to them. But if they want to have more reward and willing to take some more risk, that is available also. Working hard for peanuts is no fun, not extremely fair and nobody is disputing that. I've been there before.
However, because of the opportunities we do have, if someone looks hard enough, there just might be another way. Although we disagree on our views, I can tell from your posts that you seem like a knowledgeable and decent guy and I hope and think that eventually you'll be able to find something good.
Well, I think that there is a human tendency that the more you have the more you want. This applies to pretty much every human being regardless of ecocomic status, exceptions exist I am aware.
There is no doubt in my mind that if somebody that has less than anyone in this forum will feel the same way people are commenting about the "rich". They would probably say the same thing when they read all the messages about people complaining so much about how bad they got it. I wonder how many in this forum and all the others people complain so much about the economy and spend a great time of their day in the computer debating, have big flat screen TV, the latest electronic gadget, etc. and still complain how bad they have it. As I said I venture to guess the same others with less will say about many in this and other forums if they knew how they live, take care.
Well, I think that there is a human tendency that the more you have the more you want. This applies to pretty much every human being regardless of ecocomic status, exceptions exist I am aware.
Well, let me introduce myself, my name is Randomdude, and I would be very content living at the median lifestyle. That would mean nearly a 10k dollar raise for me, and I can handle that. I want nothing more in life than a reasonable home, with a yard big enough for sustenance farming, in a safe neighborhood, internet access, running water, electricity, an economy car, and the ability to save for my own retirement. I find no use for most luxuries, nor do I want them.
I want more money, only because the money Im making now, cannot afford those things I listed. However, at the point I could achieve those, I would desire no more, and any extra would simply go to allowing me to retire earlier.
Well, let me introduce myself, my name is Randomdude, and I would be very content living at the median lifestyle. That would mean nearly a 10k dollar raise for me, and I can handle that. I want nothing more in life than a reasonable home, with a yard big enough for sustenance farming, in a safe neighborhood, internet access, running water, electricity, an economy car, and the ability to save for my own retirement. I find no use for most luxuries, nor do I want them.
I want more money, only because the money Im making now, cannot afford those things I listed. However, at the point I could achieve those, I would desire no more, and any extra would simply go to allowing me to retire earlier.
Good for you. Your vocabulary is very vague in some ways. A reasonable home? What does that really mean. If I ask that question I would probably get a different answer every time based on personal views in life. A big yard? Big a nebulous term. How many acres? I assure you that many will be happy than the size you want and other would not. A car? Is a car really a necessity? There are many people out there that make do without a car and are also happy because they consider it a luxury. Internet access? Is it that important?
I do not mean to be sarcastic. I am serious about my questions. To me this comes to show that we all have our own views as to what is that we want in life. Often we want more than we really need, nothing wrong with that. The last question, in your eyes, what is a luxury? I wonder what other people think when you list that. The bottom line it is all about personal perspectives. People out there love to demonize the rich. I wonder how much of that is simply envy. How much do we know how the rich got rich. What sacrifices they made to get to that level? In some ways it is no different that the sacrifices and priorities we set for ourselves. Nothing wrong with your description of what you want in life. That is great. You have goals and work on them. Other do so differently. My first message covers how people tend to demonize the rich without really looking at those peoples lives as they struggled just as we do at our level, take care.
Good for you. Your vocabulary is very vague in some ways. A reasonable home? What does that really mean. If I ask that question I would probably get a different answer every time based on personal views in life.
You are right, my idea of a reasonable home is 3 bedrooms, 2 bath, maybe 1200-1500 sqft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
A big yard? Big a nebulous term. How many acres? I assure you that many will be happy than the size you want and other would not.
I wouldnt even need a half an acre. 1/4 would probably do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
A car? Is a car really a necessity? There are many people out there that make do without a car and are also happy because they consider it a luxury.
A car is a neccessity in some geographic areas. Most US cities do not have good public transportation, nor is there unlimited housing within reasonable bicycling/walking distance to job cores. If you live in NYC, yeah, a car is more of a luxury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
Internet access? Is it that important?
Only if you dont want to do the following
1. Apply for most jobs
2. Research medical conditions without a doctor
3. Communicate officially
4. Shop for good online only deals
5. Keep up with the world if you dont have cable or the newspaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
I do not mean to be sarcastic. I am serious about my questions. To me this comes to show that we all have our own views as to what is that we want in life. Often we want more than we really need, nothing wrong with that. The last question, in your eyes, what is a luxury?
A luxury is something that only has entertainment value, or, is a good or service that goes beyond its practical purpose
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
I wonder what other people think when you list that. The bottom line it is all about personal perspectives. People out there love to demonize the rich. I wonder how much of that is simply envy. How much do we know how the rich got rich.
I dont hate the rich, I hate the system they used to get that way.
I am from a poor family, my parents came from poorer familes, and did nothing but bust their ass their whole lives, and Ive done nothing but bust my ass for my life so far. What is the result? We have made other people a whole lot of money, but my parents only have achieved a modest life style from penny pinching and scrimping, and dispite having better qualifications then my parents did at my age, I am doing worse, and have less.
So, not everyone is "lazy", however, they probably are all very angry, as they should be. The poor and working classes have been turning over more and more of their wealth to the rich for decades. It needs to stop.
How exactly are they turning their wealth over to the rich?
We are a very mobile society now with internet and communication capabilities. Don't like your job or your pay, get another.
There is a difference between working hard and working smart. Plenty of people "work hard" but don't generate a great deal of value, hence they don't get paid well either. The smart workers educate themselves, seek out new opportunities, grow, develop and expand their boundaries.
I think what you are waiting for is for someone to forcibly hand over their wealth to you for nothing. The best thing is to get off yer butt and start finding ways of making yourself valuable enough to earn that wealth. No one is going to pay you $250K a year to operate a french fryer.
You are right, my idea of a reasonable home is 3 bedrooms, 2 bath, maybe 1200-1500 sqft.
I wouldnt even need a half an acre. 1/4 would probably do.
A car is a neccessity in some geographic areas. Most US cities do not have good public transportation, nor is there unlimited housing within reasonable bicycling/walking distance to job cores. If you live in NYC, yeah, a car is more of a luxury.
Only if you dont want to do the following
1. Apply for most jobs
2. Research medical conditions without a doctor
3. Communicate officially
4. Shop for good online only deals
5. Keep up with the world if you dont have cable or the newspaper
A luxury is something that only has entertainment value, or, is a good or service that goes beyond its practical purpose
I dont hate the rich, I hate the system they used to get that way.
Thanks for the reply. From what I see of you when you debate subjects I do not think you envy the rich but other sure do reflect that as far as I am concerned.
Even then the system is for for all to use. You can take advantage of the system without violating your ethics and principles. It does not matter what economic/political system we may have there are people that will use it to abuse others. What happens then is many people blame a system. No system is perfect and people being humans will find ways to circumvent laws and the system to get what they want. An easy example is how kids manage to twist words and orders from their parents to get what they want, is that not true? The same with adults.
By the way, I need your help. How in the world do you split up my message in lines to reply to the different parts as you did. I admit ignorance and I have tried with no avail. I would very much appreciate it if you let me know the steps, take care.
So, its really not about hard work, its about having the right skills, at the right place, at the right time. Nothing more.
No. It usually has very much to do with hard work. It is extremely hard to acquire the "right skills". The "right skills" are skills that are had by only a small minority of people. The reason only a small minority of people have these skills is because they usually require a tremendous amount of work and sacrifice to obtain them. But if you work very hard with common skills, your advancement will be minimal. Acquiring the skills to be a doctor, lawyer, successful small business owner, investment banker, etc requires countless hours of work, many sleepless nights, intense study, and either considerable debt or savings. I used landscaping as an example of a common skill and hard work that will never make you wealthy. On the other hand, if you put your money back into the business, go the extra mile and learn business skills, marketing and advertising, employment contracts, etc, you can build yourself a nice business that can make you a lot of money. Of course, you dont believe in this because you would be making money off of other people's work. I dont see it that way. I see it as giving people the opportunity that you had to save and build their own businesses. But only the ones that are willing to go that extra mile. After a hard days work, most people are going to have a beer and watch the ballgame. Only the most motivated are going to go home and work even harder to acquire the less common skills necessary to learn how to run a successful business.
Quote:
Because living your parents legacy is feudalism at its finest
And not allowing it is a gross assault on people's freedom and liberty.
Quote:
And how does that fact affect the quality of life the kid born in to wealth will have? Oh yeah it doesnt.
Yes it does. They may not know it. You may not know it. Possessions alone do not make for a good quality of life. I derive my happiness from my family, feelings of accomplishment, and my contributions to society, NOT my possessions.
Quote:
Actually, everybody cant be you. You are a tremendous statistical outlier. There are not the available jobs, spots in medical school, or duplicate paths you took for everyone to take that path.
I am only a statistical outlier because I made myself one. Do you think it was easy going to the library while my friends went to night clubs, or sitting in my dorm room studying while my friends were in the next room watching movies and playing Nintendo? How about 120 hour work weeks away from my wife and kids during 4 years of residency? I'm sure if I spent the same amount of time, energy, and sacrifice perfecting most needed, but uncommon skills, I would be just as financially successful. Even more so if I applied that time and energy to investment banking, finance, commodities or stock trading, etc. Capitalism is all about rewarding those who are willing to go the extra mile. To learn and perfect skills that the average person doesn't have. But "working smart", as another poster termed it, is figuring out how to use those skills to benefit the largest amount of people possible.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-17-2010 at 05:37 PM..
No. It usually has very much to do with hard work. It is extremely hard to acquire the "right skills". The "right skills" are skills that are had by only a small minority of people. The reason only a small minority of people have these skills is because they usually require a tremendous amount of work and sacrifice to obtain them. .....
Many good posts here, but this is one of the best posts on the subject yet
My father used to tell me since I was little "Work hard now to work easy later"...decades later I'm really understanding what his words meant.
My hardest work was as an undergrad in college, a had a few semesters averaging 4-5 hours of sleep. Most others were partying, "living it up", doing the regular college thing, etc. I was staying up until 2-3AM reading, doing practice problems, studying, programming the computer lab and learning as much as I could about computer theory...to the point almost nobody could believe. I remembered those words and just knew that someday it would pay off. One day it finally did, and I have absolutely no regrets for the sacrifices I made back then.
Now I have a more normal lifestyle. I usually work 45-65 hr weeks, but it's not nearly as strenuous and crazy as it was in my undergrad Computer Science/Physics program.
Do other people who make less money work harder than me now? Sure they do, and I have no problem admitting this. I have no doubt in my mind that saw mill workers, landscapers, steel workers etc have less fun than I do at my job and work harder than me now. I have respect for people in these professions and realize that their jobs are a necessity in this society.
But in most cases they didn't work nearly as hard as top software developers, physicists, surgeons etc to acquire these skills. I think we can agree on that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
