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I would appreciate any answers to the following questions, which I am pretty sure are quite basic to many of those raised in the US.
1. Is cursive writing still mandatory/frequently taught in schools? If yes, at what age are students expected to learn cursive writing?
2. I never understood the "tracking" system in the US.
Again, this might sound completely ignorant or grossly misunderstood - but an acquaintance recently warned me that I should always pay very close attention to "dynamics" in my children's class, as parents are rarely truly aware of how their child stacks up, mainly because of the "privacy" mindset as it relates to academic performance.
Apparently, no one knows how much better or how much worse their child does in school compared to peers ...only to wake up at some point, not clear when, to the reality that the child was placed by the school in one track or another.
So how is it decided that a child will end up in AP groups, gifted groups, the honors group, "regular" group, special ed group or what have you?
Who decides such things and when? Based on what? (I assume standardized tests...but are these the only criteria?).
3. I have noticed that many children (my son included) come back from pre-K with some printed pages on which they conduct certain activities.
A friend recently told me that this practice continues throughout k-12 and that the practice of having a neat, organized, well taken-care of notebook for each discipline, where work is done on a daily basis (with date at the top), and progress can be tracked throughout the semester - does not exist anymore.
In first grade, we were all expected to have a Writing notebook for the Writing class, a Math notebook for the Math class, etc - and treat those notebooks like they were sacred. We could make all sorts of mistakes, proofing, trials, on separate sheets of paper - but the notebooks were our "business cards" and they had to sparkle.
Is this practice still alive in American public schools by any chance? Do certain private schools retain such practices?...
1. Cursive will depend on the particular school and district. My granddaughter learned cursive at 7 (she was in 2nd grade, but with a late birthday, so most of the students would have been 8)
2. Tracking will also depend on the particular school and system. My granddaughter's school does not *track* in elementary school, but there are some children who are pulled out for the gifted program for some of the day. Classes are heterogeneous in elementary school, but kids are encouraged to do math and reading at whatever level they test at. My dgd's always been at the top reading level, so she reads books that are on a higher level than many other kids in her class.
3. Special education is decided by a school evaluation, usually requested by either the parent or the teacher depending upon who knows the needs. My grandson was already dxed at 18 months with autism, so when he went to school, we automatically had the school evaluate him for placement. In Texas, the student gets an ARD and from that services are determined. Special education students qualify for services early (many as young as 12 months depending on the disability), but services for children under three fall under early intervention rather than the schools. At three, children with special needs become eligible for the free preschool services at the public schools and their services will continue until the goals are met or until the end of their schooling, depending upon what progress they make.
4. In elementary schools, most gifted services will be determined by IQ testing (or other testing depending on your district). My granddaughter tests well on the preliminary tests, but has never made the gifted cut and that's fine with me as her school is an International Baccalaureate candidate and has many great features for all the kids. Since the measure used is standardized IQ tests, some kids who are very gifted don't get in because they are less academically gifted and more artistically, musically or creatively gifted.
5. Honors, AP and regular tracks are usually reserved for middle schools and high schools and mostly for high schools. In the schools my kids went to, kids chose honors courses on the advice of counselors or parents. Both my ds and dd were in honors and then took APs, but not every AP that was offered. My ds was a math genius and too two years of AP calculus, plus differential equations in his high school, but many schools do not offer that. Some kids at his school went to university for math courses for dual credit. He also took AP Chemistry, AP Physics and AP biology. My dd took AP English and History and only one year of Calculus. Much depends on the students. Since my grandchildren are still too young, I cannot say how it will work when they get to high school. I wish the IB program would continue, but our district has decided that it costs too much money, so after 4th grade, she will not have that any longer. The placement in these classes are not based on standardized tests as much as teacher recommendations and grades in past classes, btw, though certainly standardized test scores also count.
5. My grandchildren's school has a binder in which the work comes home every day. It is organized and neat. My granddaughter has had a writer's notebook since first grade, but that was not sent home every day and in fact, we saw it only at the report card times. In middle school and high school, many teachers require notebooks, but generally not in the elementary schools here. So in 5th grade (at 10 or 11), you will see more notebooks depending on the school and district and the particular teacher preferences. I always required notebooks in my math classes and these were actually where kids did their homework as well as took notes from the lectures. I tried to teach them how to take notes from their math texts as well. I don't know if that is done in many classes nowadays though.
1. Cursive will depend on the particular school and district. My granddaughter learned cursive at 7 (she was in 2nd grade, but with a late birthday, so most of the students would have been 8)
2. Tracking will also depend on the particular school and system. My granddaughter's school does not *track* in elementary school, but there are some children who are pulled out for the gifted program for some of the day. Classes are heterogeneous in elementary school, but kids are encouraged to do math and reading at whatever level they test at. My dgd's always been at the top reading level, so she reads books that are on a higher level than many other kids in her class.
3. Special education is decided by a school evaluation, usually requested by either the parent or the teacher depending upon who knows the needs. My grandson was already dxed at 18 months with autism, so when he went to school, we automatically had the school evaluate him for placement. In Texas, the student gets an ARD and from that services are determined. Special education students qualify for services early (many as young as 12 months depending on the disability), but services for children under three fall under early intervention rather than the schools. At three, children with special needs become eligible for the free preschool services at the public schools and their services will continue until the goals are met or until the end of their schooling, depending upon what progress they make.
4. In elementary schools, most gifted services will be determined by IQ testing (or other testing depending on your district). My granddaughter tests well on the preliminary tests, but has never made the gifted cut and that's fine with me as her school is an International Baccalaureate candidate and has many great features for all the kids. Since the measure used is standardized IQ tests, some kids who are very gifted don't get in because they are less academically gifted and more artistically, musically or creatively gifted.
5. Honors, AP and regular tracks are usually reserved for middle schools and high schools and mostly for high schools. In the schools my kids went to, kids chose honors courses on the advice of counselors or parents. Both my ds and dd were in honors and then took APs, but not every AP that was offered. My ds was a math genius and too two years of AP calculus, plus differential equations in his high school, but many schools do not offer that. Some kids at his school went to university for math courses for dual credit. He also took AP Chemistry, AP Physics and AP biology. My dd took AP English and History and only one year of Calculus. Much depends on the students. Since my grandchildren are still too young, I cannot say how it will work when they get to high school. I wish the IB program would continue, but our district has decided that it costs too much money, so after 4th grade, she will not have that any longer. The placement in these classes are not based on standardized tests as much as teacher recommendations and grades in past classes, btw, though certainly standardized test scores also count.
5. My grandchildren's school has a binder in which the work comes home every day. It is organized and neat. My granddaughter has had a writer's notebook since first grade, but that was not sent home every day and in fact, we saw it only at the report card times. In middle school and high school, many teachers require notebooks, but generally not in the elementary schools here. So in 5th grade (at 10 or 11), you will see more notebooks depending on the school and district and the particular teacher preferences. I always required notebooks in my math classes and these were actually where kids did their homework as well as took notes from the lectures. I tried to teach them how to take notes from their math texts as well. I don't know if that is done in many classes nowadays though.
Nana,
That was truly helpful. Thank you so much!
Overall, it sounds quite complicated. I know my parents would have thrown a fit if they'd had to deal with all these nuances and hassles of learning how to navigate the system.
We were enrolled in first grade. We went to school. We listened to teachers. We were all taught the same thing, the same way, at the same pace. Some did excellent, others so and so, others not so well and a few failed. That was life.
So it looks like I am in for a completely different ball game. Maybe my mom will finally understand why I will never end up with her cooking-from-scratch abilities, no matter how healthy it is.
Thank you again.
Overall, it sounds quite complicated. I know my parents would have thrown a fit if they'd had to deal with all these nuances and hassles of learning how to navigate the system.
We were enrolled in first grade. We went to school. We listened to teachers. We were all taught the same thing, the same way, at the same pace. Some did excellent, others so and so, others not so well and a few failed. That was life.
So it looks like I am in for a completely different ball game. Maybe my mom will finally understand why I will never end up with her cooking-from-scratch abilities, no matter how healthy it is.
Thank you again.
Glad I could help. It's really not as complicated as all that except that we no longer try to teach everyone the same thing at the same pace. Imo, this is a good thing for the most part. It allows more children to succeed. If the school is a good one, there will be lots of hands on learning.
You will also find that teaching is rarely just *listening* to the teacher anymore. Again, from my perspective, this is a good thing. I really wish I could go back to third grade and do what my granddaughter is doing. One of the neat things I saw was their science lab on mass. They went to the *lab* and there was a note on the whiteboard. It said *We had a very unfortunate incident this morning. Our bank was robbed and one of the balls that you see on your tables broke the window.* Your assignment is to be a detective and figure out which ball has the most mass because that is the only one that could have broken the window. They had 5 groups of four students and 5 balls on each table along with a balance scale and weights. Each group had to sort and classify the balls by properties they could see (color, size, smoothness, etc.) and write that on an index card (with each student doing one card). Then they had to find out which ball on their table weighed the most using the balance scale. They played around with that using balancing the balls themselves and using the weights. Once each table had a ball that had the most mass, the teacher then asked them to give the numbers and they compared the numbers from each table to determine which ball was the culprit. Every student was engaged in the activity. All of them learned a lot about science vocabulary and how to determine mass. This took about 40 minutes of class time including going to and from the lab. The teacher summed up the findings and the kids had to write it in their *lab books* as well.
I loved it. I was there because I am the class photographer, so I took pictures and these will go in the yearbook (or at least a few will).
That sounds nice and I think that episodes like the one you described can break the tediousness inherent in studying and just give kids their moment of fun.
At the same time, I am deeply convinced that no real studying of any subject can happen without going through tedious, judicious, line-by-line abstract mental effort. For all of its good intentions, I am afraid that such "new" educational methods emphasize entertainment, fun, excitability and short-cuts way more than they should, to the point where students end up expecting all learning to be fun, attractive and easy; and if it's not, the teacher had better come up with some methods to make it this way.
In reality, studying is often NOT fun and NOT fluffly.
It is painstaking; and this is something today's children no longer know how to accept.
That sounds nice and I think that episodes like the one you described can break the tediousness inherent in studying and just give kids their moment of fun.
At the same time, I am deeply convinced that no real studying of any subject can happen without going through tedious, judicious, line-by-line abstract mental effort. For all of its good intentions, I am afraid that such "new" educational methods emphasize entertainment, fun, excitability and short-cuts way more than they should, to the point where students end up expecting all learning to be fun, attractive and easy; and if it's not, the teacher had better come up with some methods to make it this way.
In reality, studying is often NOT fun and NOT fluffly.
It is painstaking; and this is something today's children no longer know how to accept.
I have a masters in mathematics. I LOVED studying. I also did not think it was *hard.* Doing many problems that are similar though was tedious and unnecessary too. Once I got the concept, I did NOT need to do 50 problems from a page of the same ones. It is true that kids need to learn to apply themselves, but abstract thinking comes *after* the concrete steps have been mastered in a hands on way.
Overall, it sounds quite complicated. I know my parents would have thrown a fit if they'd had to deal with all these nuances and hassles of learning how to navigate the system.
We were enrolled in first grade. We went to school. We listened to teachers. We were all taught the same thing, the same way, at the same pace. Some did excellent, others so and so, others not so well and a few failed. That was life.
So it looks like I am in for a completely different ball game. Maybe my mom will finally understand why I will never end up with her cooking-from-scratch abilities, no matter how healthy it is.
Thank you again.
In a nutshell, that is still what happens today. Tracking is "unofficial" in most schools now, unfortunately. There are a lot of parents out there that still want to micromanage every step of their child's education and think they know better than the teacher so you will hear stories about parents "navigating" the system because of that but if you live in an area with good schools you really don't have to worry too much.
Our kids have always used notebooks for homework. In elementary school they had color coded notebooks/folders to help with organization-math was red, reading was blue, etc.
Our kids learned cursive writing in 3rd grade but have never been required to use it. Personally I think it is a waste of time now. Many schools are doing away with it. Keyboarding is a more relevant class to today's society.
Schools here really aren't any different than schools elsewhere-the kids show up, spend the day learning and they go home.
I have a masters in mathematics. I LOVED studying. I also did not think it was *hard.* Doing many problems that are similar though was tedious and unnecessary too. Once I got the concept, I did NOT need to do 50 problems from a page of the same ones. It is true that kids need to learn to apply themselves, but abstract thinking comes *after* the concrete steps have been mastered in a hands on way.
Nana,
I would dare to argue that for most children, studying any subject in- depth does not come with "fun" and "easy" attached. I have no doubts you are telling the truth but if this is as you describe, you must simply have been a fairly gifted/talented person. You cannot count on such a reality with most children.
Most of the times, whatever MOST kids find "fun" and "easy", will most probably be cursory and superficial.
My son has a tendency to blurt out "but it's haaard!" as soon as he encounters something - ANYTHING! - that poses a challenge.
If laziness is in the genes, he surely must have picked one of those because he is clearly not a child who likes to challenge himself.
If he is challenged and made to do something - he will live up to the expectations; but if you leave it up to him, he will not choose to do it.
He'd rather stay with "easy", if at all possible, even though his intellect is hardly something to be ashamed of.
I often get comments from teachers and other people as to how bright he is (mainly because he is extremely verbal and has relatively mature mannerism) and yet, only we know how lazy he can be.
The trick is I won't allow "easy". I have made a habit of abstaining from responding with the instinctive "oh, no, it's not hard, honey, it's easy, look, just try it!!".
I simply tell him: "Yes, you are right, it is hard. But even if it is hard, we will do it anyway".
He's had his share of whines and protests but my strategy must have worked as he is now increasingly inclined to accept the discomfort that comes with "hard", even if that discomfort is not welcome by him (and I doubt it will ever be).
Now, at 5 (turned in September), he makes his own bed in the morning, picks up his room and vacuums it, organizes his drawers, helps me carry grocery bags, makes 24-50 piece puzzles completely on his own, reads simple sentences and writes his own "Thank You" cards ...all of which used to be perceived as extremely hard by him. I just expected those things and he was forced to live up to them.
I, personally, am scared of the "fun and colorful" approach especially with a child like him who's been anti-challenge ever since he was a baby.
In most elementary schools the teachers place the students. It works out well, for the most part. The advanced classes are usually much more difficult and if a student isn't up to it, s/he will struggle, especially in a subject like math.
Most of the problems come from the parents. Sometimes they think Little Johnny should be in a more advanced class, but it's more about status than ability.
You seem like a very engaged parent. If you follow your children's homework, you'll know immediately if it's too easy or too hard (or just right). If they're engaged and challenged (but not overwhelmed or frustrated), they're in the right classes.
In most elementary schools the teachers place the students. It works out well, for the most part. The advanced classes are usually much more difficult and if a student isn't up to it, s/he will struggle, especially in a subject like math.
Most of the problems come from the parents. Sometimes they think Little Johnny should be in a more advanced class, but it's more about status than ability.
Sounds really interesting and I am learning a lot, so thank you again!
With the competitive spirit I have noticed among parents, I can only imagine the drama, the anxiety, the suspicious attitudes, the hypocrisy and Lord Knows what else...that happen "behind the scenes" when children are placed in various classes. Overall, I find this spirit terribly sad, unhealthy and alienating...but this is the world we seem to live in.
We are not there yet but trying to remain objective to the whole thing, I can clearly see how this can become 90% about parental status and ego.
HOWEVER, one thing I don't understand well yet is whether these placements in "regular" vs. "advanced" classes, etc. concretely impact the student's future in terms of admission to college, etc.
In other words, would they have a "resume/CV" effect on the long-term trajectory of the student?
If it was just a question of staying in a regular class to master really well whatever the student needs to master, and at a slower pace, then I would not think twice about my child being in a regular class. This would be more than fine as long as I'd know the end result is the same - only achieved at a slower pace.
HOWEVER, if FAILING to be in AP classes would mean that certain colleges can reject him in the future simply because he learned his things at a slower pace, in a regular track - then I can see how I would end up having a problem with it and how anxiety would kick in about teachers' subjectivity in picking students for AP classes.
Growing up, you could have been the most horrific student you could choose to be, k-12; but in the end, if you pushed really hard towards the end of high-school and passed your exams for admission into University, nobody could have cared less about your "glory days" in k-12. There was no resume effect. Just admission exams - harsh, real, completely anonymous. No non-sense.
However, I sense that the k-12 trajectory in the US can leaves indelible marks on the child's "resume" which can affect admission into college. Am I correct about this?
If this is so, than I believe the whole thing is serious business and I can see why some parents would freak out, well beyond ego, about their child NOT being picked for AP classes.
Any clarification in this sense would be appreciated.
Last edited by syracusa; 10-04-2010 at 05:45 PM..
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