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Old 10-25-2016, 05:36 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,992,920 times
Reputation: 4335

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Thank you for the insults. Perhaps you're a bully.
If you think I am a bully, that means that you are ineffective at determining who are bullies and who aren't, just like most other teachers and school administrators I've known. I'm not surprised.

Quote:
When I became principal, I fully realized we had a bullying problem in my school. We began an education program for our teachers, and another for our students, and another for our parents. I was even selected by my school system to do a video on our program and for bullying issues, which was later sold to other school systems in the U.S.
So, in other words, you give lip service to bullying and try to appear to be doing something about bullying, while allowing the real bullying to go on.

Quote:
Further, what bias against victims??? As an elementary school and junior high victim of 2 bullies, I am hardly biased against victims.
If you weren't biased against victims, then you wouldn't be punishing victims for standing up for themselves. I still argue that one of the goals of the people who bullied me was for me to stand up to them and get punished so that I'd be disqualified from honor roll despite my grades. They knew that the adults would do nothing to help me, and they knew that it would be just so long until I'd stop being able to ignore it.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:37 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,992,920 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Soon as I read these, I didn't even know what to say. This "hide behind the rules" and "teachers will prevent it" belief is half the cause of the problem. Ok, you're a principal. Well, here are a bunch of parents, and students here right now telling you that school policies are not working. The bullies are there. Teachers know it and they ignore it. And you see here in this thread the continuing frustration of parents that school officials are in denial and will not listen to us.
Thank you!!
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Old 10-26-2016, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,260 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32614
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
If you think I am a bully, that means that you are ineffective at determining who are bullies and who aren't, just like most other teachers and school administrators I've known. I'm not surprised.



So, in other words, you give lip service to bullying and try to appear to be doing something about bullying, while allowing the real bullying to go on.



If you weren't biased against victims, then you wouldn't be punishing victims for standing up for themselves. I still argue that one of the goals of the people who bullied me was for me to stand up to them and get punished so that I'd be disqualified from honor roll despite my grades. They knew that the adults would do nothing to help me, and they knew that it would be just so long until I'd stop being able to ignore it.
You have your kid to worry about.
I had 900+ to worry about.
Different responsibilities.
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Volunteer State
1,243 posts, read 1,141,430 times
Reputation: 2159
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You have your kid to worry about.
I had 900+ to worry about.
Different responsibilities.
  • This is coming from a 21+ year veteran of teaching (and therefore dealing with bullies and he bullied) in public high schools...
  • From a parent of 2 children that, for a brief period of their time in school, have been bullied...
  • From a former student that has been both the bully (to my everlasting regret) and the bullied at various times in my middle and high school tenure...

I would have hated for you to have been the principal in any of those situations, based on almost everyone of your posts in this thread.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,260 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman71 View Post
  • This is coming from a 21+ year veteran of teaching (and therefore dealing with bullies and he bullied) in public high schools...
  • From a parent of 2 children that, for a brief period of their time in school, have been bullied...
  • From a former student that has been both the bully (to my everlasting regret) and the bullied at various times in my middle and high school tenure...

I would have hated for you to have been the principal in any of those situations, based on almost everyone of your posts in this thread.
You make so many assumptions.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:22 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,992,920 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You have your kid to worry about.
I had 900+ to worry about.
Different responsibilities.
That is not an excuse for not doing your job. If being a principal is too hard for you, then find a different job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman71 View Post
  • This is coming from a 21+ year veteran of teaching (and therefore dealing with bullies and he bullied) in public high schools...
  • From a parent of 2 children that, for a brief period of their time in school, have been bullied...
  • From a former student that has been both the bully (to my everlasting regret) and the bullied at various times in my middle and high school tenure...

I would have hated for you to have been the principal in any of those situations, based on almost everyone of your posts in this thread.
Thank you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You make so many assumptions.
Good comeback. lol.
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Old 10-27-2016, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,260 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32614
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That is not an excuse for not doing your job. If being a principal is too hard for you, then find a different job.



Thank you!!



Good comeback. lol.
Look, you said you were a teacher. Well in my school, the number one problem in stopping bullying was teachers, who invariably made excuses like "Boys will be boys" and "Girls will be girls". To be honest, most teachers I've seen (and after all, I used to be one) didn't want to deal with bullying. They just wanted to teach their subject. Another problem with bullying was parents acting inappropriately when it was brought to their attention; either excusing it if their kid was the bully, or encouraging fighting. And guess what had to happen when there was literal fighting. A referral to the police -- our school resource officer. Our administration was tough on bullying. Suspensions were not at all unusual for bullying in my school, and in a few cases, recommendations for expulsion were sent on to the central administration.

The number one thing needed to stop bullying is teachers -- like you -- opening your eyes and getting involved, instead of ignoring it. The number two thing needed to stop bullying is parents -- like you -- taking it seriously if you're on one side of the bullying, and doing things the right way, instead of encouraging your child to break the law.

Not doing my job? My school was recognized as one of the top 10 schools in the state of Virginia.
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:22 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,992,920 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Look, you said you were a teacher.
No, I am not a teacher. I guess you haven't been reading my posts. Most of my posts have been against teachers for allowing bullying and for abusing their own power. Where did you get the idea that I was a teacher?

Quote:
Well in my school, the number one problem in stopping bullying was teachers, who invariably made excuses like "Boys will be boys" and "Girls will be girls". To be honest, most teachers I've seen (and after all, I used to be one) didn't want to deal with bullying. They just wanted to teach their subject. Another problem with bullying was parents acting inappropriately when it was brought to their attention; either excusing it if their kid was the bully, or encouraging fighting. And guess what had to happen when there was literal fighting. A referral to the police -- our school resource officer. Our administration was tough on bullying. Suspensions were not at all unusual for bullying in my school, and in a few cases, recommendations for expulsion were sent on to the central administration.

The number one thing needed to stop bullying is teachers -- like you -- opening your eyes and getting involved, instead of ignoring it. The number two thing needed to stop bullying is parents -- like you --
I am not a parent either.

Quote:
taking it seriously if you're on one side of the bullying, and doing things the right way, instead of encouraging your child to break the law.

Not doing my job? My school was recognized as one of the top 10 schools in the state of Virginia.
A lot of top schools have bullying problems.
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,260 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32614
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
No, I am not a teacher. I guess you haven't been reading my posts. Most of my posts have been against teachers for allowing bullying and for abusing their own power. Where did you get the idea that I was a teacher?



I am not a parent either.



A lot of top schools have bullying problems.
Actually, I did read your posts, and I mistook your quotation of Starman with you. I'm sorry for that error.

You are correct that a lot of top schools have bullying problems. And we did have bullying problems until I stepped in and said that "we" are going to tackle this. Admittedly, no matter how strong a school is against bullying, there will still be some bullying. I think people have to be aware that most bullying is not something that staff will even notice. Most of it's done in the shadows, so to speak. In 7th grade when David K bullied me, I doubt very much than any teacher would have noticed it. It was always on the sly. What upset me about bullying -- aside from the bullying itself -- was when a kid would tell a staff member and they would pretty much ignore what was going on. And, if it later became known to the administration that bullying had been going on and that a teacher (or teachers) knew about it, but did not intervene or report it to administration, that's when we'd start hearing the "well, boys will be boys" and "girls will be girls" excuses by teachers. Now as I have pointed out, not all administrators are strong against bullying, and sometimes you hear administrators making that same "boys will boys" excuse.

Perhaps it's wise for me to relate something that happened at our school very early on in my principalship, and what led us to start taking a close look at bullying at our school...and resulted in staff, student, and community education on the topic. Suddenly there was a website called "The ******* and whores of _____ Middle School". The whole issue was problematic in several ways. First, it was libeling students in a very public manner. Second, it brought to the community that there were drinking parties among our middle school students where some apparent sexual activity might have been taking place. Third, it certainly reflected badly on the school. I immediately contacted our school board attorneys for guidance, and their recommendation was that I begin an investigation to determine if the website was constructed using school computers. If so, we had jurisdiction. But if not, if the website was done on private computers at student homes, then we had no jurisdiction. Our computer specialist determined that the latter turned out to be the case. That didn't mean that I washed my hands of the situation. We had meetings with the parents of the students cited on the website, and made recommendations to them about their options -- things such as filing complaints with the police department, and we provided our school resource officer to assist in that; the potential of lawsuits for libel. It was then that we learned that the students who had created the website had actually put up a second identical website on a different web company's server. Although I had no legal jurisdiction, I called one of the seb hosting companies and explained the situation. Much to my surprise they agreed to take the website down; their reasoning was that the students who created the website had violated the TOS they had agreed to; the website was down within an hour. I then called the second web hosting company, and they hesitated to cooperate until I pointed out what the other hosting company had done. It took them longer -- about 12 hours -- but they also took the website down.

And this is something that parents need to be aware of and have conversations with their kids about -- in the old days (when I grew up), we thought of bullying as being physical action. Today, we look beyond just the physical and also look at what I refer to as emotional bullying. Boys are more likely to be involved in physical bullying, while girls are more likely to be involved in emotional/verbal bullying.

Parents need to take a more active role in having conversations with their children about bullying -- both making sure that their children are not being bullied, but also making sure that their children are not bullies themselves. And I have a feeling that there are a growing number of parents who wouldn't be alarmed if their children were bullies. It's also problematic that students who are being bullied will often deny that they are being bullied because they are afraid that reporting/admitted they are bullying victims will result in retaliation by the bully. It's a bit of a vicious circle, and when I was being bullied in the 7th grade, I was afraid of reporting it, and would probably have denied it if asked.

Teachers need to be more proactive in noticing even the subtle signs of bullying. And when a child tells a teacher that he/she is being bullied, teachers need to do something...both directly and by reporting the issue to the administration...not to dismiss as it as some sort of passing phase.

Administrators need to consistently take action against actual bullying, and to provide school and community education about the topic.

What I resented about this thread is the implication that all administrators ignore bullying. Some do. Too many do. But not all of us ignore or ignored this issue.
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:28 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,992,920 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Actually, I did read your posts, and I mistook your quotation of Starman with you. I'm sorry for that error.

You are forgiven for the error.

Quote:
You are correct that a lot of top schools have bullying problems.

Which is why you pointing out that your school is a top school wasn't relevant to this thread.


Quote:
And we did have bullying problems until I stepped in and said that "we" are going to tackle this.

But punishing the victims is not a proper method of dealing with bullying.


Quote:
Admittedly, no matter how strong a school is against bullying, there will still be some bullying. I think people have to be aware that most bullying is not something that staff will even notice. Most of it's done in the shadows, so to speak.

Which is exactly why schools need to listen to bullying victims, rather than punishing them.


Quote:
In 7th grade when David K bullied me, I doubt very much than any teacher would have noticed it. It was always on the sly. What upset me about bullying -- aside from the bullying itself -- was when a kid would tell a staff member and they would pretty much ignore what was going on.

Which is exactly what I keep saying!! But until now you disagreed with me.


Quote:
And, if it later became known to the administration that bullying had been going on and that a teacher (or teachers) knew about it, but did not intervene or report it to administration, that's when we'd start hearing the "well, boys will be boys" and "girls will be girls" excuses by teachers. Now as I have pointed out, not all administrators are strong against bullying, and sometimes you hear administrators making that same "boys will boys" excuse.

The excuses I was given was "I didn't see it", "There is nothing I can do", "Life isn't fair", "Stay away from him", and "Ignore him".

Quote:
Perhaps it's wise for me to relate something that happened at our school very early on in my principalship, and what led us to start taking a close look at bullying at our school...and resulted in staff, student, and community education on the topic. Suddenly there was a website called "The ******* and whores of _____ Middle School". The whole issue was problematic in several ways. First, it was libeling students in a very public manner. Second, it brought to the community that there were drinking parties among our middle school students where some apparent sexual activity might have been taking place. Third, it certainly reflected badly on the school. I immediately contacted our school board attorneys for guidance, and their recommendation was that I begin an investigation to determine if the website was constructed using school computers. If so, we had jurisdiction. But if not, if the website was done on private computers at student homes, then we had no jurisdiction. Our computer specialist determined that the latter turned out to be the case. That didn't mean that I washed my hands of the situation. We had meetings with the parents of the students cited on the website, and made recommendations to them about their options -- things such as filing complaints with the police department, and we provided our school resource officer to assist in that; the potential of lawsuits for libel. It was then that we learned that the students who had created the website had actually put up a second identical website on a different web company's server. Although I had no legal jurisdiction, I called one of the seb hosting companies and explained the situation. Much to my surprise they agreed to take the website down; their reasoning was that the students who created the website had violated the TOS they had agreed to; the website was down within an hour. I then called the second web hosting company, and they hesitated to cooperate until I pointed out what the other hosting company had done. It took them longer -- about 12 hours -- but they also took the website down.

I am glad that you did something about that situation. But it is still wrong that you punish bullying victims.

Quote:
And this is something that parents need to be aware of and have conversations with their kids about -- in the old days (when I grew up), we thought of bullying as being physical action. Today, we look beyond just the physical and also look at what I refer to as emotional bullying. Boys are more likely to be involved in physical bullying, while girls are more likely to be involved in emotional/verbal bullying.

That is very true. But both types of bullying need to be handled. I think I posted about an incident in middle school where a notorious (male) bully put gum in a girl's hair (one of my female friends). Another girl started laughing at her. The assistant principal gave detention to the girl who laughed, but not to the guy who put gum in my friend's hair. This same assistant principal allowed people to bully me by ignoring it and telling me that "life isn't fair", but he would always give me detention for standing up to bullies. It was clear that he wanted to encourage and enable bullying. I always felt that his intention in the situation with the gum was to appear to be giving lip service to bullying (by giving detention to the "emotional bully" girl), while allowing real bullying to continue by not giving any punishment to the guy who put the gum in the girl's hair. You would probably make the argument that he was right for taking the emotional bullying seriously, while feeling that the gum can always be removed. But the "emotional bullying" would have never happened if the guy didn't put gum in her hair in the first place. And, as I said, the guy was a habitual bully; the girl who laughed was an otherwise nice girl.

Quote:
Parents need to take a more active role in having conversations with their children about bullying -- both making sure that their children are not being bullied, but also making sure that their children are not bullies themselves. And I have a feeling that there are a growing number of parents who wouldn't be alarmed if their children were bullies. It's also problematic that students who are being bullied will often deny that they are being bullied because they are afraid that reporting/admitted they are bullying victims will result in retaliation by the bully. It's a bit of a vicious circle, and when I was being bullied in the 7th grade, I was afraid of reporting it, and would probably have denied it if asked.

Exactly! And that is why schools need to stop punishing the bullying victims.

Quote:
Teachers need to be more proactive in noticing even the subtle signs of bullying. And when a child tells a teacher that he/she is being bullied, teachers need to do something...both directly and by reporting the issue to the administration...not to dismiss as it as some sort of passing phase.

Yes. And they need to not punish the bullying victims.

Quote:
Administrators need to consistently take action against actual bullying, and to provide school and community education about the topic.

What I resented about this thread is the implication that all administrators ignore bullying. Some do. Too many do. But not all of us ignore or ignored this issue.

All of the teachers and administrators that I had the misfortune of dealing with when I was in school ignored bullying. My mother in law is a retired teacher, and she says that it was "not her job" to handle bullying, and that kids need to learn that "life isn't fair".


I do thank you for finally posting something intelligent. I do feel that you have good intentions in handling bullying, but don't realize that punishing the victims is just going to make the problem worse.


I still argue that one of the main intentions of the people who bullied me was to get me to fight back so that I would get detention, and possibly disqualification from honor roll. They knew that even if I ignored the bullying, I would at some point reach my breaking point where I would have to stand up. And in one case, I had no choice but to fight back to avoid a serious injury. I am sure that you will argue that in my case, one day of detention was preferable to suffering a serious injury at the hands of a bully twice my size. That might be true, but it doesn't make it right.
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