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I got suspended before in 10th grade in Walnut Hills High School it was a big kid that was picking on me. And I said do something he started pushing me and I push him back. And then we started the fight. Of course I won da fight, cause am athletic and I play football. I slammed him on the ground. I did got suspended for 2 weeks I didn't got in trouble, because da kid started the whole thing. I was defending myself.
To what level of escalation and to what age should we allow children to fight back?
For reasons I cannot remember, in 10th grade, I was relentlessly teased by a twirler and her various guy friends. It wasn't that violent but rather things like mild head slaps, finger flicks against my ears in geometry class.
The thing is that at 16, I had been in judo for 6 years, at times taught not by sport Sensei but by US Army infantry, and by then, my skills were pretty firmly in place, I may have even been state champion by then,.......and my father was telling me at home that if I ever majorly misbehaved, he would have to come after me with a baseball bat because my skills were far beyond his capability.
So how do we decide what is permissible for fighting back?
This proves once again that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The fuzzy-thinking do-gooder I'm-the-smartest lefties who initiate these policies actually believe a lot of this BS.
UNTIL they are jumped by someone, or perhaps there's a riot downtown. Then they go running for their armed friends.
If I had a kid in this type school, he/she would be in judo or jiu jitsu classes for the duration.
Take down. Neutralize. No strikes necessary.
WRONG
One of my sons is the peaceful hippy type even today at age 32 . When he was in first grade he had THREE bullies continually beat the *^*( out of him . Unfortunately they also lived in my semi -rural neighborhood. One day the school bus beat me home from work by a few minutes and I drove up just in time to see them standing over him with a claw hammer they'd gotten out of MY garage . My child was on the ground with his hand up while they were going to wail him with a hammer, I slammed the truck into neutral hit the parking brake, but left it on , ran across the yard and yelling at them grabbed the hammer from them and went after them , literally chasing them down the lane with it . I'm a do gooder leftie alright but if you even think your going to take my kid out with a hammer you think wrong .
Got back in my truck and let the parents know what was going to happen if I ever saw their kids in my yard gain or ever heard of any of them bothering my kid at school .
It's a shame I had to act like I was insane to get this to STOP after many attempts .
Today he is a musician in a band under contract many years for a major label in Los Angeles and those same kids are drunk rednecks living the good old trailer life back in rural Texas .
To what level of escalation and to what age should we allow children to fight back?
For reasons I cannot remember, in 10th grade, I was relentlessly teased by a twirler and her various guy friends. It wasn't that violent but rather things like mild head slaps, finger flicks against my ears in geometry class.
The thing is that at 16, I had been in judo for 6 years, at times taught not by sport Sensei but by US Army infantry, and by then, my skills were pretty firmly in place, I may have even been state champion by then,.......and my father was telling me at home that if I ever majorly misbehaved, he would have to come after me with a baseball bat because my skills were far beyond his capability.
So how do we decide what is permissible for fighting back?
It should be common sense as to what level of escalation to allow children to fight back. It would be based on the size / strength of the kids involved, and the level of bullying. Unfortunately, teachers and administrators seem to lack common sense. And, yes, it will involve some judgment calls. But, unfortunately, teachers and administrators aren't good at making judgment calls.
For example, if somebody is (to use your example) giving "mild head slaps, finger ficks against ears", breaking his or her nose would be an excessive use of force, and you should be punished for fighting back in that case. If somebody is 6' tall, 200 lbs, and on the football team, and is physically assaulting somebody who is 5' tall, 110 lbs, and much smaller, the smaller kid should not be punished for fighting back. I remember hearing in the news about a scenario in the Bronx where a large man beat up and permanently disabled a small woman, and then he claimed that it was self-defense. Obviously, even if the woman did hit the man first, he used excessive force, given that she was no threat to him (unless she was armed, which she wasn't), and given that he caused her permanent disability. This all should be so obvious. Too bad it's not obvious to teachers and administrators.
It should be common sense as to what level of escalation to allow children to fight back. It would be based on the size / strength of the kids involved, and the level of bullying. Unfortunately, teachers and administrators seem to lack common sense. And, yes, it will involve some judgment calls. But, unfortunately, teachers and administrators aren't good at making judgment calls.
For example, if somebody is (to use your example) giving "mild head slaps, finger ficks against ears", breaking his or her nose would be an excessive use of force, and you should be punished for fighting back in that case. If somebody is 6' tall, 200 lbs, and on the football team, and is physically assaulting somebody who is 5' tall, 110 lbs, and much smaller, the smaller kid should not be punished for fighting back. I remember hearing in the news about a scenario in the Bronx where a large man beat up and permanently disabled a small woman, and then he claimed that it was self-defense. Obviously, even if the woman did hit the man first, he used excessive force, given that she was no threat to him (unless she was armed, which she wasn't), and given that he caused her permanent disability. This all should be so obvious. Too bad it's not obvious to teachers and administrators.
Fair enough........of course, that would mean I would have no way to respond (even a sleeper hold would probably be excessive) and I should just take their abuse and learn to live with it.................
.................which is what I did and which seems to be the outrage of today, that there are those who tell children just learn to live with it and do nothing.
Both Obama and Romney admitted to being schoolyard bullies when they were younger. At my job, most of the bosses admit to being former school bullies. Most of the bullies that I knew from school, except for the few that ended up in jail, have successful careers (most successful than mine).
What do you mean by detentions for fun stuff?
No, Obama did not admit to being a bully. He said he was bullied sometimes because of his big ears and his name. The *bullying* incident he reported in his book was a single incident and involved denying that he was the girl's boyfriend and giving her a little shove. A 'slight shove' doesn't come close to holding a kid down and cutting his hair. Not only that but since he mentions a jungle gym, I suspect this was elementary school and in elementary school this kind of teasing and chasing between girls and boys is pretty common. Note that this incident also did not indicate cruelty in the way Romney's did. And, last, but not least, Obama in his book admitted he was troubled by what had happened.
Romney, otoh, was a bully but he never admitted it. He claimed he did not remember the incidents. Romney was 18 at the time of the incident reported and there were several witnesses. The thing is that Romney never thought about the hurt he caused and that he cannot see things from other's perspectives.
It’s also worth pointing out, as Salon’s Glenn Greenwald has, that as a Yale sophomore in 1965, George W. Bush reportedly stuck up for a reputedly gay student. Bush heard the student being called “*****,” told the taunters to shut up, and apparently also said, “Why don’t you try walking in his shoes for a while?” That’s the kind of instinctive compassion Mitt Romney failed to show when he was a few years younger than Bush was.
Fair enough........of course, that would mean I would have no way to respond (even a sleeper hold would probably be excessive) and I should just take their abuse and learn to live with it.................
.................which is what I did and which seems to be the outrage of today, that there are those who tell children just learn to live with it and do nothing.
So which should it be?
I see your point. In your case, retaliating in kind would have just been seen as immature, but any type of physical force would have seemed disproportionate to the bullying that you were enduring, especially if the bullies were smaller and not prepared to take any physical defenses from you. I honestly do not have a good answer.
In a way, I was in a similar situation when I was disqualified from honor roll due to serving 5 days of detention (for something I didn't even do), and, as I said, for the rest of the school year (about 10 weeks or so remained), every single day, on the bus rides to and from school, the entire bus (including the bus driver) sang a song about me being disqualified from honor roll. Like I said earlier in the thread, listening to that song every single day was far worse than any physical bullying I ever had to deal with, worse than serving 5 days of detention for something I didn't do, and worse than being disqualified from honor roll for something I didn't do. But what defense did I have? Physically attacking somebody for singing a song would have been disproportionate retribution, plus I would have had to attack the entire bus, including the bus driver. Having neither the bus driver nor the assistant principal on my side meant that I had no recourse through the school. Singing my own song wouldn't have worked, since an entire busload singing would have obviously overpowered my voice. So, I was literally in a situation where there was not a thing I could do, other than wait out the rest of the school year.
(ironically, I did get honor roll that quarter, since the assistant principal made an error when recording my detention dates, so it only counted as 4 days, not 5 days. It did raise some questions, since this assistant principal normally always gave either 1, 2, or 5 days of detention (never 3 or 4).
When I was a kid I found that if you did not defend yourself, you got picked on even more. Stand up for yourself and others are more likely to leave you alone.
Both Obama and Romney admitted to being schoolyard bullies when they were younger. At my job, most of the bosses admit to being former school bullies. Most of the bullies that I knew from school, except for the few that ended up in jail, have successful careers (most successful than mine).
What do you mean by detentions for fun stuff?
Like when I blew off my afternoon classes to go drinking with friends. Got a boatload of detentions for that but at least what I did to get them was fun.
To what level of escalation and to what age should we allow children to fight back?
Always, and to whatever extent is necessary to stop the bullying. If the administrators aren't going to do anything about the bullying (and they aren't), they've ceded any claim they might have against the students handling the problem themselves.
Quote:
For reasons I cannot remember, in 10th grade, I was relentlessly teased by a twirler and her various guy friends. It wasn't that violent but rather things like mild head slaps, finger flicks against my ears in geometry class.
Ah, yeah, I used to get that, the constant finger flicks and other small tortures. And of course in class if I reacted I'd get in trouble for that. Stopped when I spun around and punched a kid in the face when he flicked my ear. Yeah, I got suspended. But the crap stopped.
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