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Old 10-30-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,049,845 times
Reputation: 2084

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1984 View Post
I think knowledge of advanced math is a waste if you aren't in a career where this math skills will be used freuently; however, I believe that these people should have an understanding of basic math (adding, subtracting, multiplying and division), basic & intermediate algebra and geometry, and statistics.
I agree. I think that the most the public schools should require is geometry and basic algebra.

The sad fact of the matter is, the overwhelming jobs in this nation don't make any use of advanced mathematics nor science knowledge. Waitresses don't need to know Calculus. Walmart employees don't need Calculus either nor a knowledge of Molecular Biology. Truck drivers don't need to know about Quantum Mechanics.

Our politicians, intellectuals, and pundits are wringing their hands over how woefully we are teaching science and math in this country needlessly. (It's easier to blame our nation's economic and employment problems on poor education than it is on foreign outsourcing, H-1B and L-1 visas, and mass immigration.) As far as I know, science, engineering, and math majors--the people who really need this knowledge--are still receiving a fine education in science, engineering, and math at our colleges. In fact, believe it or not, we even have a huge oversupply of PhD. scientists and some would argue that we have an oversupply of engineers and mathematicians. See:

The Real Science Gap | Smart Journalism. Real Solutions. Miller-McCune.

It's too bad that our politicians and intellectuals are trying to hoodwink and sell a terrified American populace on education as a solution to our nation's economic and employment problems instead of identifying and addressing our nation's real problems like grown ups.
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,049,845 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You KNOW I'm ANTI constructivist math. I'm referring to going farther in math not math pull downs. IMO, we need to get the basics down before bringing in higher level math. That's should be the focus of the early years. Once you have the foundation built, then take them to new heights.
One of my concerns is that kids today are learning how to use calculators but not how to do or understand math. I don't think calculators should be needed or allowed until high school--let them learn how to do it all on paper.
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,049,845 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoobness View Post
you can NEVER teach TOO MUCH MATH. Thats the dumbest thing Ive heard all week.
Your statement is the dumbest thing I've heard all week. Teaching and learning math is NOT FREE! It costs time and money. Someone has to be paid to do the teaching and students spend valuable time that could be done doing other things.

For example, it doesn't make sense for all adults to learn advanced calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations. If all adults spent an additional year in high school or college learning (or trying to learn) all of that, it would be very expensive and wasteful.

Quote:
How many math majors are poor and cant find a job because they have math degrees? None. They don't exist.
Says who? Do you have a PhD. in Mathematics? Perhaps you're right, but if we researched the subject I wouldn't be at all surprised if we found math majors and PhD's complaining about an inability to find employment.

Quote:
Math is the language of everything that matters. Sure culture is nice too, but one can live a fruitful, well managed, safe and balanced life because he/she has logic skills to reduce and simplify almost any situation in order to make the wiser decision. Economics, finance, risk management, entrepreneurship, software engineering, engineering the list goes on.
Are you certain that we don't already have an oversupply of people in those fields now? Is the number of jobs in those fields finite or infinite? If we were to triple the number of people with engineering degrees, would the number of jobs for people with engineering degrees at currently prevailing wages also triple? (As far as I know, a large increase in supply does not magically create an increased demand, at least not at the same price point.)

Quote:
All very high starting salaries, life security, and very high retirement salaries. The math major will no doubt be the richest and happiest of all his/her college friends. The math major will never have to be a customer service rep, a waiter, sales rep, worry about bills etc.
This sounds like dogma, as though you believe in it almost religiously.

I would agree with you that math is very useful and that a knowledge of math has economic value. It's certainly better to major in a subject that requires a thorough knowledge and understanding of math than it is to major in art history. However, that doesn't mean that it's a guarantee of vocational success and that it's impossible to have an oversupply of people in those fields.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:56 PM
 
5 posts, read 6,065 times
Reputation: 19
I think overall we have missed the boat on tracking the way other nations do. We do not maintain a track for those going into mathematical/scientific fields, those going into humanities, those going into agriculture, etc. Instead we track all students the same and wonder why it doesn't work. Why do some do so poorly in one subject and so well in others? Duh! It's because that is their natural proficiency! Work with the positives, moving the student through school on a track that will most benefit his/her future, not the all-kids-go-to-college track. It doesn't work. Never has, never will.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:58 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,839,457 times
Reputation: 17473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svatos View Post
Exactly. A lot of people today want jobs where they can easily follow a manual. I'm sorry, but there was a reason back in the day why certain kids got pushed into the vocational direction. It was because their superiors realized they lacked the critical thinking/intellectual capacities to do well in college. Now we have people on here saying that we need to send more kids to the vocations. Riiiggghtt. I'm not sending any child of mine with a 4.0 GPA to plumber school. It's not because I think he/she is too good to be a plumber. I just realize I'd be handcuffing their abilities with a menial, follow the instructions to a T, type job.
You have a misconception about vocational jobs. Seriously, a good plumber is NOT following a manual. Some people are better at jobs where they work with their hands. Sure they have to follow a manual when they are learning, but they may deal with all sorts of unusual situations.

Plumber Jobs, Successful Plumber, Plumber Jobs Market, Plumber Job Search

Quote:
According to CollegeBoard.com, those interested in becoming plumbers should try to make the most out of their high school experiences. Having a firm understanding of math (especially geometry and algebra) and science (especially chemistry and physics) is helpful. So are learning computers skills and having experience in drafting and using tools. After high school, however, attending trade schools that specialize in plumbing is essential.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:13 PM
 
48,505 posts, read 96,682,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_22 View Post
A professor of mathematics at the University of Illinois wrote an interesting opinion piece in Saturday's Washington post, arguing that contrary to conventional wisdom, educational institutions in the United States are teaching more math than warranted and questioning the utility of learning advanced math for most people.

I personally enjoy math, believe strongly in its mind stretching properties, and will encourage my kids to take as much of it as possible. Nonetheless, I found the professor's opinion thought provoking, well written, and certainly worthy of consideration.

I am curious to hear others' reactions, and I would encourage folks to actually read the piece before responding. The link is below.


washingtonpost.com
Its noit a problem of all people ist that we don't prodcue enough i math and the sciences . I thnik even fundalmental math we are reallt lacking in also ;personally. Cewrtainly not so much teahers but in private world.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:36 AM
 
919 posts, read 1,778,970 times
Reputation: 965
If any of you think that the trades don't need mathematical skills, you're dead wrong. Sitting in my library is a book my father owned, "Handbook of Applied Mathematics," Van Norstrand and Company, 1955. It's a study of plumbing, machine shops, carpentry, electronics, etc all have use of a great deal of math. When I taught hs math, I would drag this book out periodically to show my students that these were highly skilled trades, that not only was muscle needed, but brains in order to apply the math we were learning.

What I learned was what math actually is, a precise method of measurement. It requires not only a disciplined mind to apply the concepts, but a very strong understanding of those concepts initially. This is where I found the greatest problem with math, that we don't know or understand math conceptually. What is a slope, what do "+", "-" indicated, why was calculus, both integral and differential, invented and why is it used? I NEVER was taught any of that, even as I studied for a math minor. Only on my own did I come to understand what those things meant. And only in its application to the trades and physics did I learn how to apply math. I believe that anyone can do math, if they are taught correctly. And let me give you an example of why its so poorly taught. All math majors have to take a basic proofs class,which gives you a fundamental understanding of calculus. All you math majors know what I'm talking about. Anyway, our teacher was a guy who received his PH.d in the US, but did all of his undergrad work in Eastern Europe. He ended up giving us both the questions and answers to the test, and he went over them in class to make sure we understood what he wanted! The reason he did it was because in Eastern Europe, they spent a whole year on the subject, whereas in this country we spent ten weeks. He said that it was impossible for him to teach us the subject matter in this short a time, when it took him an entire year, not just a school year, but an entire year, to learn. He simply gave up and told us we were getting jerked, and he had no intention of staying in the US.

Schools aren't being constituted to teach adequately, they are constituted to teach with as little classroom expenditure as possible. And it shows when we have such a superficial understanding of the material. It simply has to change, but I doubt it will.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:57 PM
 
2,634 posts, read 2,664,124 times
Reputation: 6512
Maybe I read the wrong article, but the article seems to focus on how we are marketing math to people and not that we need to teach students less math or cut math instruction down.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:52 PM
 
284 posts, read 616,053 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Of course, but we still get them to learn to read. Imho, the same has to be true of math. We need to teach differently, but they can learn.
I haven't finished reading the posts, but I am so happy to see someone pointed this one.
Many people think of child with special needs as child who can't learn. The fact is many of them have average and above average intelligence and can learn. I was in a State sponsored IEP training course, the attendees were mainly special ed teachers/administrators, the instructor pointed out "Let's face it, over 95% of the kids can be "proficient", they just need to learn differently.

The sad part was that many of the teachers I met in my sd do not believe in the students because it is easy to set low expectations.

When I realized my kid did not progress as she should after 2 years in special ed for Math, I pulled her out, taught her at night. It was hard, but 2 years later, she does not require too much help.

Then in these two years, I have been "reasoning" with the SD on setting the right expectation for her.

There is another thread on a 10th grader reading at 3rd grade level. I am not even go into it...
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:11 AM
 
18,837 posts, read 37,284,946 times
Reputation: 26463
1. Skilled vocational workers need advanced Geometry and Algebra skills, my Grandfather was a machinist, and calibrated machinery to craft turbines for Hoover Dam. He made good money, and never went to college, but he could do math in his head. 2. My Mother has an MS degree in Math, and did struggle with employment, due to issues with not understanding how to get along with others. Just because you are smart, that does not mean you can hold down a job. 3. My daughter has severe learning disabilities, and struggled with math, and reading. I was told that I was setting my child up for "failure" when I put her in regular math in high school. Nope, I just had an expectation that she could do it, even if we did do 4-5 hours of homework a night, she learned it. Of course, it was helpful that her Grandmother was her private math tutor!
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