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That may be true. All I know is that was the target audience. The main idea was to pull down some of the things that these kids will never see because they can't get past Algebra. So, we have kindergarteners lining up by birth month and making piles of leaves by color and we claim to have taught them statistics . It was written for the child who can't pass algebra. I don't know about you but I'm not willing to declare my child unable to take algebra in kindergarten.
Yeah, well you know I agree with you about Algebra in Kindergarten. I'm having hard enough of a time trying to find a way to help my (now 5th grade) daughter solve problems that require division because she has absolutely NO idea which way to procede and hates them all to boot. We're getting there, but it's frustrating to me as a parent to have taken up way too much time (IMO) trying to reteach concepts that she's so clearly not getting, but would actually have no problem with if she didn't hate to have to learn yet another way.
What I have a difficult time understanding with these types of curriculums is why people just can't put aside their egos when it becomes glaringly apparent that something is not working for the majority of students. I guess I just see a whole lot of wasted time, trying to prove something is working longterm.
As far as statistics is concerned - I'm with you on that as well. I think it's more than ridiculous to expect an 8 year old to grasp those concepts without a solid foundation of operations.
I can absolutely say that wasting time running around the house counting and graphing our house's windows, or thinking about what the likelihood of the class going on a picnic 8 years ago was, has done absolutely nothing for my DS's ability to "think about" statistical operations today. None.
I am not sure where you get the information that EDM is targeted to the lower track kids. It was developed at the University of Chicago and is used at the Lab school which has mostly upper track kids though it doesn't discriminate on that basis. I don't like Chicago Math particularly for the upper grades, but the kindergarten program seems excellent.
I think that spiraling can be good or bad. In theory, kids are not supposed to move on from the beginning contents until they master something. Some parents really like it and others hate it. The other criticism appears to involve the fact that it leaves out some important skills.
I am not sure where you get the information that EDM is targeted to the lower track kids. It was developed at the University of Chicago and is used at the Lab school which has mostly upper track kids though it doesn't discriminate on that basis. I don't like Chicago Math particularly for the upper grades, but the kindergarten program seems excellent.
I think that spiraling can be good or bad. In theory, kids are not supposed to move on from the beginning contents until they master something. Some parents really like it and others hate it. The other criticism appears to involve the fact that it leaves out some important skills.
I get my information from research on EDM. It was developed by the University of Chicago to answer the issue of kids never seeing satistics, geometry and higher order math thinking skills because so many can't get past algebra. That's why you see statistics pulled down to kindergarten. The problem is, it does nothing to address the issues that were causing high numbers of kids to do poorly in algebra and so much material is pulled down that other material had to be thrown out leaving a program that produces kids even worse off WRT being ready for algebra. This program was not written to prepare kids for algebra. It was written so that kids who won't get past algebra will see things they would, otherwise, miss. IMO, the time to address what kids will miss because they can't pass algebra is when you've determined they can't pass algebra NOT kindergarten. My dd did not need to do pareto charts, mitten math or counting by 5's on a calculator.
If you want to see how kids do in algebra after this program, just come to my district. They are pulling their hair out trying to get kids ready for Algerba 1 after making the mistake of bringing EDM into the system 6 years ago (it's out now but way too late for the kids who suffered through 5 years of it). I pulled my kids and didn't bring them back to the district until there was no risk of them having to take EDM. Guess what? They don't know what to do with my kids while they try to fix the math skills of the rest of the kids. I told them 5 years ago, when I pulled my kids, this would happen. This is NOT a program that gets kids ready for algebra and algebra is now a requirement for graduation.
I spent two years, actively, fighting this program before giving up and placing my kids in a charter school that used Singapore math (WONDERFUL program. VERY mathematically sound. Great foundation to build on. Can't say enough good things about it...). There is a long line of engineers and mathematicians across the country fighting EDM and other fuzzy math programs. Those of us who use math in our jobs recognize garbage math when we see it.
This link, sadly, is 11 years old and EDM is STILL finding it's way into new districts only to be abandoned 5 or so years later leaving a bunch of mathematically challenged children behind.
I do not believe spiraling works at all. I think it just leaves confused kids. IMO, teaching them to do one thing well before going on to the next works much better. The charter school my girls attended used mastery learning. Kids did not move on until they mastered each level.
As a former engineer, I can tell you that some algorythms are springboards to higher learning while others are just a means to get an answer today. Like the Egyptian method of multiplication which even EDM admits gets too cumbersome to use when the numbers get large (but that's what calculators are for, right????). Good old fashioned learning your multiplication tables and long multiplication prepares kids for factoring in algebra and balancing equations in chemistry. The Egyptian method of multiplication gets an answer, provided the numbers aren't too large and nothing else. They are teaching kids math tricks that some who know math use but they can use them because they know math and they know the limtations on the algorythms. They are not teaching these to the kids. They just, casually, move on and never even mention that some of these methods only work well when the problems aren't very complicated. Unfortunately, math gets more and more complicated as you move up the ladder. Where are these kids when the problems they're being asked to solve are beyond their ability because they were taught math tricks to get an answer that only really work well for simpler problems?
Some of the algorythms don't even require understanding of place value, like the lattice method of multiplication. Just add along the diagonals and everything lands where it needs to be....one problem though....don't try this with something like, oh, say, Avagadro's number in chemistry....Good luck using the lattice method to sovle anything using 6.02 x 10^23 and having everything land in the right columns....ugh. I saw enough math tricks in the two years my dd was in the program to RUN for the hills with one kid tucked under each arm. It's a good thing I did. My dds' friends, who didn't get tutoring, are really struggling.
On the bright side, EDM did grow the local economy. We used to have one Sylvan on the other side of town. Now we have two Sylvan's and a Kumon Learning Center....What people don't realize is that the "success" the writers of this program claim as their own is really from kids getting tutored after school. You'd be hard pressed to find a parent who was not sending their child for tutoring or working with them at home themselves in my dd's old school. Sure math scores go up when that happens....it's just not due to EDM.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-02-2010 at 04:40 PM..
I get my information from research on EDM. It was developed by the University of Chicago to answer the issue of kids never seeing satistics, geometry and higher order math thinking skills because so many can't get past algebra. That's why you see statistics pulled down to kindergarten. The problem is, it does nothing to address the issues that were causing high numbers of kids to do poorly in algebra and so much material is pulled down that other material had to be thrown out leaving a program that produces kids even worse off WRT being ready for algebra. This program was not written to prepare kids for algebra. It was written so that kids who won't get past algebra will see things they would, otherwise, miss. IMO, the time to address what kids will miss because they can't pass algebra is when you've determined they can't pass algebra NOT kindergarten. My dd did not need to do pareto charts, mitten math or counting by 5's on a calculator.
I saw enough math tricks in the two years my dd was in the program to RUN for the hills with one kid tucked under each arm. It's a good thing I did. My dds' friends, who didn't get tutoring, are really struggling.
On the bright side, EDM did grow the local economy. We used to have one Sylvan on the other side of town. Now we have two Sylvan's and a Kumon Learning Center....What people don't realize is that the "success" the writers of this program claim as their own is really from kids getting tutored after school. You'd be hard pressed to find a parent who was not sending their child for tutoring or working with them at home themselves in my dd's old school. Sure math scores go up when that happens....it's just not due to EDM.
Bear with me: I've spent quite literally years researching this. Since it's related to the topic of curriculum, I hope it doesn't veer too far from topic.
Bold #1. Here's the thing: Chicago Math was developed by the Education Department of the University of Chicago primarily - fairly early on it was rumored (I have no hard facts - and it's not for a lack of trying to find any) that the Mathematics Department took a huge step back from endorsing it.
The education department were the "experts" tasked with deciding the best learning style of kids. The Department of Education is now closed btw.
Here is a more recent take on math in schools by a professor (who ironically hails from the University of Chicago).
I wholeheartedly concur with his opinion of math education today.
An excerpt:
"...So it is with math education. A lot of effort and money has been spent to make mathematics seem essential to everybody's daily life. There are even calculus textbooks showing how to calculate -- I am not making this up and in fact I taught from such a book -- the rate at which the fluid level in a martini glass will go down, assuming, of course, that one sips differentiably. Elementary math books have to be stuffed with such contrived applications; otherwise they won't be published.
You can see attempts at embarrassing the public in popular books written by mathematicians bemoaning the innumeracy of common folk and how it is supposed to be costing billions; books about how mathematicians have a more clever way of reading the newspaper than the masses; and studies purportedly showing how much dumber our kids are than those in Europe and Asia."
Bold #2: Prior to the economy tanking, the Sylvan office in our area was standing-room-only.
We would often marvel at the number of cars going in and out of that place on any given day (from BMW's to beat up Grandma vans). I made a point to speak to the director of the office who informed me that math was top on the list of tutoring they did there.
Additionally, I can't count the number of parents in my town who clandestinely hired tutors or were able to tutor their children themselves.
To top it off, there were the groups who could not either A. afford tutoring for their children or B. couldn't teach themselves how to do it in order to even help their children one iota with learning it, and C. became so concerned about their child's lack of mathematical skill that they requested (and in many cases were granted) and IEP for math only for their child.
That NEVER plays a part in ANY data I see with regard to the "success" of EDM in our schools. But, it looks good on paper.
It seems when these kind of anecdotal examples come up, they are simply explained away as ignorance either on the part of the parents or the teachers. It appalls me really after all these years.
The only "statistcal" information I can seem to find is that which is brought to you by McGraw Hill Publishers et. al (and of course, it's only the "works wonders" variety). Pardon my cynicism please, but I simply cannot believe some of the things I read vs. most of the things I see with my own two eyes.
EDM has been in many schools in my area - yet, everytime I hear about test scores rising, I can't find any data anywhere relative to what math program the surveyed schools actually use and for how long they've used it.
Bear with me: I've spent quite literally years researching this. Since it's related to the topic of curriculum, I hope it doesn't veer too far from topic.
Bold #1. Here's the thing: Chicago Math was developed by the Education Department of the University of Chicago primarily - fairly early on it was rumored (I have no hard facts - and it's not for a lack of trying to find any) that the Mathematics Department took a huge step back from endorsing it.
The education department were the "experts" tasked with deciding the best learning style of kids. The Department of Education is now closed btw.
Here is a more recent take on math in schools by a professor (who ironically hails from the University of Chicago).
I wholeheartedly concur with his opinion of math education today.
An excerpt:
"...So it is with math education. A lot of effort and money has been spent to make mathematics seem essential to everybody's daily life. There are even calculus textbooks showing how to calculate -- I am not making this up and in fact I taught from such a book -- the rate at which the fluid level in a martini glass will go down, assuming, of course, that one sips differentiably. Elementary math books have to be stuffed with such contrived applications; otherwise they won't be published.
You can see attempts at embarrassing the public in popular books written by mathematicians bemoaning the innumeracy of common folk and how it is supposed to be costing billions; books about how mathematicians have a more clever way of reading the newspaper than the masses; and studies purportedly showing how much dumber our kids are than those in Europe and Asia."
Bold #2: Prior to the economy tanking, the Sylvan office in our area was standing-room-only.
We would often marvel at the number of cars going in and out of that place on any given day (from BMW's to beat up Grandma vans). I made a point to speak to the director of the office who informed me that math was top on the list of tutoring they did there.
Additionally, I can't count the number of parents in my town who clandestinely hired tutors or were able to tutor their children themselves.
To top it off, there were the groups who could not either A. afford tutoring for their children or B. couldn't teach themselves how to do it in order to even help their children one iota with learning it, and C. became so concerned about their child's lack of mathematical skill that they requested (and in many cases were granted) and IEP for math only for their child.
That NEVER plays a part in ANY data I see with regard to the "success" of EDM in our schools. But, it looks good on paper.
It seems when these kind of anecdotal examples come up, they are simply explained away as ignorance either on the part of the parents or the teachers. It appalls me really after all these years.
The only "statistcal" information I can seem to find is that which is brought to you by McGraw Hill Publishers et. al (and of course, it's only the "works wonders" variety). Pardon my cynicism please, but I simply cannot believe some of the things I read vs. most of the things I see with my own two eyes.
EDM has been in many schools in my area - yet, everytime I hear about test scores rising, I can't find any data anywhere relative to what math program the surveyed schools actually use and for how long they've used it.
It is sad that the publishers are claiming the hard work of tutors and parents to push their programs. Unfortunately, it works . It's only after the program is in place, and the district has committed to 5 years of materials that they begin to realize why scores go up. It's not because of the program.
I refused to allow my dd to take the MEAP test the year she was in Sylvan. The school didn't deserve her score as a feather in their cap. *I* paid for that score. Parents who are tutoring their kids need to do the same. THEN the scores will really reflect what these programs accomplish...a whole lot of nothing.
I do think we need to rethink how much math kids need. I agree with four years of math in high school but I don't think it needs to be a traditional track. We have too many people in society who can't make change without a computer to tell them how to make change.
My favorite has to be the time I went to a K-Mart and the cashier put in the wrong amount tendered. She would have given me more change than was due me except I told her what she'd done. She stood there, dumbfounded. So I told her how much change she owed me. She looked dumbfounded AND like I was trying to cheat her then called the manager. The manager looked at the sale, and the amount tendered and then did something that just stunned me. She VOIDED the sale and told the cashier to ring it up again so she could put in the correct amount tendered???? Neither one of them could start with the amount of the sale and count up to the amount I gave the cashier.
And then there was the cashier who insisted that I had to pay $24/case for cat food that was on sale at 4/$1. I had to make him open the cases and ring each can separately and he still didn't accept that it was $6/case. He was convinced I was cheating him.
Seriously, we need for our kids to graduate with more and better math skills than they have but we aren't getting anywhere near the goal of algebra for all now. We're graduating math illiterate kids and they're illiterate in the kinds of math they need every day of their lives.
We have parents who understand so little about things like concentration and ratios and who can't calculate the cost per dose of a medication, who poison their babies with Tylenol by giving the dosage for the children's version when they are using baby drops. If they had ANY math skill at all, they'd see that the cost of the medication was way too large. I'm not sure how big a bottle of baby drops are but I know it contains nowhere near the liquid in a bottle of children's Tylenol. Just the cost per dose alone ought to be setting off alarm bells if you're using the wrong dosing chart but they don't have that much math common sense.
Can we, please, worry about common sense math for all before we try algebra for all?
I am more perplexed everday at the curriculum the Wake County Schools are using. My son is now in second grade and so far they have been teaching him to add using circles, sticks and squares. Now last night he was adding to products:
Corn: 65 cents
Milk: 89 Cents
My first thought was to tell him add 5+9, carry the one and then add 6+8+1 and the answer is 154.
But no, this is Wak County's approach:
round the numbers to the nearest 10 so it is 60+80 which is 140 then add 5+9, which is 14 and add that to 140 to get 154.
REALLY!!! Is it any wonder kids are confused!! Just carry the freaking one. I just do not understand who makes the decision that the way it is being taught is the best way. He is required to do timed math quizzes and does not finish them all the time. Now I can completely understand why!!!!
There's more than one way to skin a cat...
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. It was written for the child who can't pass algebra. I don't know about you but I'm not willing to declare my child unable to take algebra in kindergarten.
We're getting there, but it's frustrating to me as a parent to have taken up way too much time (IMO) trying to reteach concepts that she's so clearly not getting, but would actually have no problem with if she didn't hate to have to learn yet another way. 
It is sad that the publishers are claiming the hard work of tutors and parents to push their programs. Unfortunately, it works 
. It's only after the program is in place, and the district has committed to 5 years of materials that they begin to realize why scores go up. It's not because of the program.
???? Neither one of them could start with the amount of the sale and count up to the amount I gave the cashier.
