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Old 12-11-2010, 01:10 AM
 
5 posts, read 13,847 times
Reputation: 15
Default Uneducated vs educated- during recession

The recession of 2008 has turned the economy upside down with millions unemployed here in the US and abroad. There is a disturbing trend I am seeing while applying for jobs, neighbors, friends, and highly educated friends.

It seems that being rewarded for hard work and having an education has gone out the window unless your a doctor in a speciality, engineer, or a millionaire. Lawyers seem to be affected by the economy.
While searching through jobs, interviewing, etc, it seems employers are treating everyone the same way no matter how qualified someone is for the job. Before the recession after high school, I could get jobs very quickly and get paid $7-9.00 an hour. Now, it seems the hours have been reduced to part-time, no benefits, and with 1,000 applying to one position.

Here is the catch. My neighbor is a resident from Mexico and some I do know by a fact are illegal or undocumented workers. As a janitor, the neighbor gets paid $7.00 an hour his wife $9.00 an hour in a cafeteria. Both do not have a H.S. diploma nor can even write English or Spanish, however, they are both legal residents. Several teenagers in the neighborhood woth undocumented parents make at least $8-$9 an hour more than their parents sometimes. The undocumented I know make 30,000-40,000 a year under sub contractors since they are electricians and construction workers. They have no education except one has a H.S. diploma. They have a brand new truck and house. They pay everything in cash only. Even though they have suffered during the recession due to their mortgage and losing additional homes, they still manage to get jobs through sub-contractors. Yes, they had more than two. The undocumented buy homes under their legal relative names.

Yet, a Wells Fargo teller gets paid $10.00 an hour having a B.S. or H.S. diploma non negotiable salary. A librarian I know makes $10 an hour, part time, with a Masters in library science. Another woman I know a scientist, makes 35,000 a year with a PH.D in entomology. Shes in her thirties. My uncle made 300,000 a year with a B.S. marketing, now makes 20,000. I have applied for jobs outside my field to make money, while I search for permanent jobs. Retail jobs, fast food, etc. offer $9-$10 an hour no benefits, most part-time. Now, I understand its hard out there, but this country is not rewarding people for an education instead we penalize them. Theres even veternarians who get paid lower than some of the undocmented I know. If a teen can go work at a fast food restaurant for $8-$9 an hour and get the job over educated people then whats the point? I know two of my friends who never went to college. One got paid 40,0000 another 50,000 a year barely passed H.S. Still have their jobs after recession. I have a B.S. in biology and now in graduate school. It seems that this country rewards uneducated people better than educated. Now I do know that after age 45 (the magic number), if you have no education it greatly reduces your ability to find a job after you are layed off. I also know education doesn't pay off until your mid thirties early 40s. Yet, young people are not going to see these benefits, especially with those student loans. Also, if you cannot write English or even speak English why is it they still get paid more? Some of the undocumented cannot write. The reason I found out is becasue some of my relatives were translating some documents for their jobs and we realized these people have fake documents.

Just remembered, some of my electrician friends lost their jobs even went to a technical college, yet have a hard time finding work. Is it because they are US citizens?
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:30 AM
 
6,151 posts, read 5,433,545 times
Reputation: 6093
Meanwhile jobs, like this one in Hawaii that pays six figures (high school diploma with 10 years experience) go begging.

They are going to have to recruit off the mainland because there aren't any qualified applicants on the island.

Our of curiosity I checked the registry for this sort of thing and here's the entire list possible qualified applicants living in Hawaii.

Burtness, Thomas W. Kapolei 94915 IV
Chan, Wai L. Kapolei 75865 IV
Funasaki, Daniel M. Aiea 66642 IV
Gibson, Robert S. Ewa Beach 98313 IV
Hollstein, C. Phillip Kailua 91319 IV
Mc Clintock, Thomas R. Honolulu 80876 IV
Seabock, Robert A. Pearl City 75935 IV

Wow, there's a possible seven qualified people living on the island but there is a problem with age. Registration numbers are issued sequentially and any number lower than 80000 was issued 31 years ago so four out of the seven are.... well... older than dirt. Out of the seven at least four of them have to be older than mid 50's and most likely in their 60's. Gibson has to be in his 70's. I wish the Dorvin D. Leis Co., Inc. good luck on that search. Eventually they will find a young guy (mid 30's to early 40's) that is qualified but they'll have to pay them to move.

No doubt the Department of Defense is requiring this. I've done several of these type gigs and DoD will take nothing else. Problem with this is a minimum ten years experience is required to gain the certification. Graduate from college at 23, get a job in the field if you can, work hard for 10 to 12 years and you might get the certification if you pass the tests. Before you get there you're in your mid to late 30's and nobody is willing to put in that kind of time anymore.

Point of all this is people are getting educated in areas where they are not needed with to many following the herd on the way to slaughter.
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Old 12-11-2010, 01:53 PM
 
1,896 posts, read 2,197,134 times
Reputation: 1110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmon1 View Post
The recession of 2008 has turned the economy upside down with millions unemployed here in the US and abroad. There is a disturbing trend I am seeing while applying for jobs, neighbors, friends, and highly educated friends.

It seems that being rewarded for hard work and having an education has gone out the window unless your a doctor in a speciality, engineer, or a millionaire. Lawyers seem to be affected by the economy.
While searching through jobs, interviewing, etc, it seems employers are treating everyone the same way no matter how qualified someone is for the job. Before the recession after high school, I could get jobs very quickly and get paid $7-9.00 an hour. Now, it seems the hours have been reduced to part-time, no benefits, and with 1,000 applying to one position.

Here is the catch. My neighbor is a resident from Mexico and some I do know by a fact are illegal or undocumented workers. As a janitor, the neighbor gets paid $7.00 an hour his wife $9.00 an hour in a cafeteria. Both do not have a H.S. diploma nor can even write English or Spanish, however, they are both legal residents. Several teenagers in the neighborhood woth undocumented parents make at least $8-$9 an hour more than their parents sometimes. The undocumented I know make 30,000-40,000 a year under sub contractors since they are electricians and construction workers. They have no education except one has a H.S. diploma. They have a brand new truck and house. They pay everything in cash only. Even though they have suffered during the recession due to their mortgage and losing additional homes, they still manage to get jobs through sub-contractors. Yes, they had more than two. The undocumented buy homes under their legal relative names.

Yet, a Wells Fargo teller gets paid $10.00 an hour having a B.S. or H.S. diploma non negotiable salary. A librarian I know makes $10 an hour, part time, with a Masters in library science. Another woman I know a scientist, makes 35,000 a year with a PH.D in entomology. Shes in her thirties. My uncle made 300,000 a year with a B.S. marketing, now makes 20,000. I have applied for jobs outside my field to make money, while I search for permanent jobs. Retail jobs, fast food, etc. offer $9-$10 an hour no benefits, most part-time. Now, I understand its hard out there, but this country is not rewarding people for an education instead we penalize them. Theres even veternarians who get paid lower than some of the undocmented I know. If a teen can go work at a fast food restaurant for $8-$9 an hour and get the job over educated people then whats the point? I know two of my friends who never went to college. One got paid 40,0000 another 50,000 a year barely passed H.S. Still have their jobs after recession. I have a B.S. in biology and now in graduate school. It seems that this country rewards uneducated people better than educated. Now I do know that after age 45 (the magic number), if you have no education it greatly reduces your ability to find a job after you are layed off. I also know education doesn't pay off until your mid thirties early 40s. Yet, young people are not going to see these benefits, especially with those student loans. Also, if you cannot write English or even speak English why is it they still get paid more? Some of the undocumented cannot write. The reason I found out is becasue some of my relatives were translating some documents for their jobs and we realized these people have fake documents.

Just remembered, some of my electrician friends lost their jobs even went to a technical college, yet have a hard time finding work. Is it because they are US citizens?
That's it exactly. First of all, yes, immigrants are willing to work for less and in many cases under the table. An employer can employ 3 or 4 immigrants for the price of 1 licensed American. It shouldn't be that way and that's why the middle class is becoming extinct.

Second, there are too many people with college degrees and not enough jobs to fill. America's only remaining crowned jewel is its educational system. We produce educated people for the rest of the world in the same way that china manufactures goods.

Some of the people at my job can barely speak English. They are mostly Asian and Middle Eastern but they have well paying jobs. They drive expensive BMWs, wear expensive jewelry, clothes etc..
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Old 12-11-2010, 03:11 PM
 
6,151 posts, read 5,433,545 times
Reputation: 6093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100 View Post
That's it exactly. First of all, yes, immigrants are willing to work for less and in many cases under the table. An employer can employ 3 or 4 immigrants for the price of 1 licensed American. It shouldn't be that way and that's why the middle class is becoming extinct.
While a popular notion from what I have seen this simply isn't true.

I work in commercial construction and especially when it comes to concrete, drywall and general labor Hispanics dominate the employee makeup they generally make pretty good money. On Thursday we just finished a new 20,000 sq. ft. store and I made it a point to take a census every time I visited the job site.

With foundations, concrete block and finished floor work it was usual to see 20 men working on site and 90% were Hispanic. 50% of these were unable to speak any English and it is insulting when someone deplores "profiling" suggesting they were here legally when everyone knows they are not. Pay was between $12/hr for the most general labor and up to $18/hr for more experienced finishers. They all work hard, do quality work and will show up every single day.

Hard work? Real hard work most 19 year olds out of high school couldn't fathom.

If someone is hitting their 67th week of unemployment collecting $392 tax free dollars why on earth would they want a $15 job earning $600.00 for the week only to have the following taken out:

Federal Income Tax Withheld $57.87
Social Security Tax $37.20
Medicare Tax $8.70
State Income Tax Withheld $26.55
Total Witholding $130.12
Take home pay $469.68

You expect me to do back breaking work all week long for $79.68? That's less than $2.00/hour and for less than $2.00/hour I will stay home and do nothing. $80.00 per week won't pay my gasoline back and forth plus lunch at some greasy spoon.

Even at $18/hr I would wend up with $553.30 and you are suggesting I work in the heat all day for a measily $161.30 per week when after gas and restaurant costs I might end up with an extra $50? Are you nuts?

People will do exactly what you pay them to do and if you pay them to stay home and watch television that is exactly what they will do. This so called unemployment insurance is destroying the work ethic of the country. I see it every day.

And you are right, after 99 weeks they'll take that $18/hr job bitching and complaining all along how they are being cheated being made to work for only $161.30 per week. They will not work as hard, I have had people actually look for workers comp claims to get out of working, and they can't wait until they have enough time to claim unemployment once again.

But I am not uncaring. People should get unemployment but it should be more money for a lot less time maybe even a lump sum payment. The way it is now isn't working for people.

Quote:
Second, there are too many people with college degrees and not enough jobs to fill. America's only remaining crowned jewel is its educational system. We produce educated people for the rest of the world in the same way that china manufactures goods.

Some of the people at my job can barely speak English. They are mostly Asian and Middle Eastern but they have well paying jobs. They drive expensive BMWs, wear expensive jewelry, clothes etc..
Americans have gotten lazy. Why work when we don't have to?
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:09 PM
 
5 posts, read 13,847 times
Reputation: 15
It seems there is pros annd cons for being uneducated and educated. I guess it really depends what field you want to specialize in. My job is going to be forensic sciences with entomology, which will be 7 years of school. Someone who is a mason, carpenter, electrician, etc don't have to go to school that long or at all. They get a job fast. There is defientely a period of unemployement though with undocumented workers. It seems they have to find jobs in between because of salary cuts, loss of job, etc. While if you have a an MD for instance, you would be employed long term for a while.

What needs to happen is that our education system needs to explicitly say that if you want to be a mechanic go to a technical school or learn on the job. So a pro would be fast employment and good salary. A con would be competition from other mechanics even new immigrants. IF you dont want to go to finish High School, they can just work. If some students are not academic material, they shouldn't go to college. This country needs to have a speacilized schools for people who want to work with their hands, etc. Also, I really believe that professions need to spell out the pros and cons of each job. For instance, a teacher needs to get a Masters in certain states, but you may have a low salary with student debt. Pro is that you get the summers off and holidays. They need to at least give the actual salaries instead of bloated ones from unreliable websites. The labor department has good statistics I follow those. This way people can choose the right professions and expect the salary. I think right now businesses are unsure what will happen with the economy so they dont want to pay anyone anything. It just makes the problem worse if people are not going into the career they are good at.
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:16 PM
 
Location: So. of Rosarito, Baja, Mexico
5,199 posts, read 9,921,674 times
Reputation: 3924
Find the OP to be a little off course with the complaints. BS and still cannot do proper English in a paragraph. Must have flunked the course.

Sorry, I'm not a spelling or grammer teacher as I've made my share of mistakes...but not so many at one time.

People have to earn their pay thru the education process be it thru schooling or practical work experience. A person with a BA or BS can still have a problem turning burgers.

A period of yrs in a field w/o a degree can still command a hefty salary. Try cleaning a septic tank that has overflowed. Does anyone think they should just get $8-$10 an hr? NOT ME.

Some may be over qualified when applying for a position...sound logical to me.

I personally have two fields I'm experienced in. One of 23 yrs and another 28 yrs. The last job was in 1996 and I commanded $45 an hr...and retired that year.

I was self employed for 36 yrs owning 1/2 dozen businesses I started so never had to worry about a minimum paying job. Weird part is I never used my degree for any of them only the ability to think things out and apply methods accordingly as needed.

Tis a shame when a person who thinks they are intelligent with a degree in hand cannot find a job...problem is people are depending on someone else to supply them with a living paycheck.

Most forget that the best helping hand they will ever get is at the end of their arm.
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Old 12-12-2010, 12:22 AM
 
1,896 posts, read 2,197,134 times
Reputation: 1110
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicet4 View Post
While a popular notion from what I have seen this simply isn't true.

I work in commercial construction and especially when it comes to concrete, drywall and general labor Hispanics dominate the employee makeup they generally make pretty good money. On Thursday we just finished a new 20,000 sq. ft. store and I made it a point to take a census every time I visited the job site.

With foundations, concrete block and finished floor work it was usual to see 20 men working on site and 90% were Hispanic. 50% of these were unable to speak any English and it is insulting when someone deplores "profiling" suggesting they were here legally when everyone knows they are not. Pay was between $12/hr for the most general labor and up to $18/hr for more experienced finishers. They all work hard, do quality work and will show up every single day.

Hard work? Real hard work most 19 year olds out of high school couldn't fathom.

If someone is hitting their 67th week of unemployment collecting $392 tax free dollars why on earth would they want a $15 job earning $600.00 for the week only to have the following taken out:

Federal Income Tax Withheld $57.87
Social Security Tax $37.20
Medicare Tax $8.70
State Income Tax Withheld $26.55
Total Witholding $130.12
Take home pay $469.68

You expect me to do back breaking work all week long for $79.68? That's less than $2.00/hour and for less than $2.00/hour I will stay home and do nothing. $80.00 per week won't pay my gasoline back and forth plus lunch at some greasy spoon.

Even at $18/hr I would wend up with $553.30 and you are suggesting I work in the heat all day for a measily $161.30 per week when after gas and restaurant costs I might end up with an extra $50? Are you nuts?

People will do exactly what you pay them to do and if you pay them to stay home and watch television that is exactly what they will do. This so called unemployment insurance is destroying the work ethic of the country. I see it every day.

And you are right, after 99 weeks they'll take that $18/hr job bitching and complaining all along how they are being cheated being made to work for only $161.30 per week. They will not work as hard, I have had people actually look for workers comp claims to get out of working, and they can't wait until they have enough time to claim unemployment once again.

But I am not uncaring. People should get unemployment but it should be more money for a lot less time maybe even a lump sum payment. The way it is now isn't working for people.



Americans have gotten lazy. Why work when we don't have to?
You've not made any sense. How is it not true? You mean everybody is just making stuff up because they don't want to work? I would have to say that is not true. There aren't any jobs because they've been outsourced and given to legal and illegal immigrants.

The USA has done well for over 200 years. So to say that Americans couldn't sustain America is a flat out lie. Nothing more to it.
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:00 AM
 
Location: state of procrastination
3,458 posts, read 3,546,802 times
Reputation: 2711
OP = I'd recommend going into medicine after you obtain your PhD, unless you are especially talented at research and don't mind a medium salary. I have a PhD in bio and I really did not see any future in pure basic research. Plus I hate the bitter people in the field who complain about how much $$ everyone else makes, and their only pleasure/solace is to sabotage other people's research so they can get ahead. Now I'm making 50k while training in medicine. At the end of the rainbow is a good subspecialty salary with the ability to go back and forth between academic research, clinical research, clinical work, or product endorsements. Not particularly rewarding to be in education for so long but at least I have a bright light at the end of the tunnel. During my PhD years I modeled and did product endorsements for extra cash and got way more $$/hr (ranging from $25 to $100/hr) than slaving away in the wet lab at 1am nights and weekends. While in training I can also moonlight and get $1000/night. It's hard work but in demand and relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100 View Post
Some of the people at my job can barely speak English. They are mostly Asian and Middle Eastern but they have well paying jobs. They drive expensive BMWs, wear expensive jewelry, clothes etc..
Don't believe for a second that English is the most important language for getting a job. If you are bilingual and can speak fluent Spanish, Chinese, or Arabic this goes a long way especially with international companies, or companies who deal with import/export. Everyone I know who had no trouble being employed are at least bilingual. Also don't be fooled thinking that people have no working knowledge of English if they can't speak it - some can read it perfectly fine even if they have trouble with fluency. Personally I am fluent in 2 languages (English and Chinese) and have some bare bones knowledge of 2 more out of necessity for my job (Spanish included). You have to do what you have to do to survive.
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Texas
28,104 posts, read 22,881,067 times
Reputation: 33574
You know, I said this on some other thread recently, but if you're tops in your field - regardless of your field - you will likely stay very gainfully employed.

Middle of the road and subpar candidates will always have to ride the wave.

All my hypereducated friends (who work in a variety of fields, from teaching to engineering to comp sci to medicine to nursing to accounting to law, etc, etc, etc) are still gainfully employed.
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:05 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 7,556,322 times
Reputation: 5309
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
You know, I said this on some other thread recently, but if you're tops in your field - regardless of your field - you will likely stay very gainfully employed.

Middle of the road and subpar candidates will always have to ride the wave.

All my hypereducated friends (who work in a variety of fields, from teaching to engineering to comp sci to medicine to nursing to accounting to law, etc, etc, etc) are still gainfully employed.
About a month after I graduated from college, someone I work with (an older, mentor figure) told me that "The only real job security is being better than your co-workers at what you do".

I believe it 100%.
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