Why the push for the "superior" child? (med school, scholarships, doctor)

[toobusytoday]

What I've found is that is amazing how very different parenting styles can produce successful adults. My nephews were raised in a much more permissive atmosphere then my kids, are not readers, although both of their parents are avid ones. Neither did that well on the CR or writing portion of the SAT but the oldest one is now employed at Google and the youngest is doing very well at a well regarded college. Both are quite the gamers, polite, really nice people. My oldest kids are 26 and 23 now and it's funny when I think of my friends who had kids the same time as us and we really brought them all up with different home rules, but there's not a loser among them. Several are in grad school for their masters, or PhD, some are gainfully employed and some are traveling and still figuring it all out. I have never thought that it was necessary to point my kids on some prescribed path for some narrow outcome. There are lots of choices in this world and one person's definition of successful is not the same for every person. Thank goodness.

[magoomafoo]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

What I've found is that is amazing how very different parenting styles can produce successful adults. My nephews were raised in a much more permissive atmosphere then my kids, are not readers, although both of their parents are avid ones. Neither did that well on the CR or writing portion of the SAT but the oldest one is now employed at Google and the youngest is doing very well at a well regarded college. Both are quite the gamers, polite, really nice people. My oldest kids are 26 and 23 now and it's funny when I think of my friends who had kids the same time as us and we really brought them all up with different home rules, but there's not a loser among them. Several are in grad school for their masters, or PhD, some are gainfully employed and some are traveling and still figuring it all out. I have never thought that it was necessary to point my kids on some prescribed path for some narrow outcome. There are lots of choices in this world and one person's definition of successful is not the same for every person. Thank goodness.

You nailed it. Does a child have to be top dog throughout their school years in order to be successfull? Absolutely not. I have twins and one is making a six figure salary and the other is making it paycheck to paycheck. Both are happy with the path they chose. That makes them a success.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

The point is not that your rules are bad, just that they will not necessarily produce what you are seeking, the superior child. My oldest son's friend are the "superior" type you seek. Very high grades, seeking admission to elite universities, etc...and plenty of them are the "video-game" types.

And I didn't disagree with you. My initial argument was an answer to the question of WHY exactly (not HOW exactly!) parents push for the "superior" child.

I never said anywhere we push for a "superior" child because true superiority IS dictated by genes. If a child is born truly "superior" (super gifted, etc) he will do phenomenally well in school with or without video games. With or without TV. That being said, such truly superior children are extremely few and far between - much fewer than G&T programs would have us believe.
The rest do well because they did the right thing or rather because their parents had them do the right thing in childhood.

We simply do what we deem best to make our children very comfortable with school and to give them other things to do outside of TV and video games. To us, the TV/video-game thing is not just a school-performance related aspect but also a cultural one. We simply do not believe in spending your time this way. I would discourage it even if research promised me it will make my children "Kings of the Hill".

I am not sure whether my child is "superior" or not by the standards the OP was mentioning, be he is surely reading, writing and doing math at 1-3 grade level before entering K (in 2 languages); he constantly gets remarks as to how articulate he is and I know will be very comfortable with school when school starts. That's all I need to know.
(Note that I keep using this culturally irritating word - "superior" - ONLY because the OP used it and I want to keep it in context).
The child is also not stressed out of his minds, not pushed against his will and happy with what he does. He often picks up academics-related activities on his own without me pushing for it. If the TV was on all day or if he had video-games lying around or the computer at his disposal - I would guess he would pick those every time to the detriment of books, pen and paper.

This is what I have seen with all other children I know who DO have unlimited access to such practices. They consistently pick those to the detriment of anything else.
You may know a different set of children and that's fine.

Ultimately, I will have to say I have noticed an incredible amount of defensiveness, irritation and frustration from many parents when you mention that you simply don't adopt the practice of TV/video-games in your household. It makes you wonder why.
Their reaction is always way more than just a shrug. They always make sure to let you know that "yeah, that's fine but don't you believe this will many them any "better" than Johnny, the electronics-addict boy !!"... (when research states otherwise) .... all the way to "you are damaging your poor children from not allowing them to be exposed to 'normal childhood' practices"!!. Never mind these practices were invented 2 minutes ago, historically speaking, and are anything BUT a part of a normal childhood.

In the end, parents will do what they think is best for their children.
Or what they think they can handle out of that "best".

[mermaid825]

Originally Posted by gardener34

Absolutely the trend.
In some fields, only having a degree from a CERTAIN college with a CERTAIN gpa will guarantee you a six-figure job.

This is really only true for law. It's tempting to think it's the case for business but some of the most successful businessmen were dropouts. And it's certainly not impossible to make a decent living as an attorney with a degree from a second tier school.

Success (and money) in life comes from charisma and the willingness to take risks. A moderate degree of intelligence helps, but I know a number of highly intelligent people still living with their parents or barely making it, because they have abysmal social skills.

[le roi]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Ultimately, I will have to say I have noticed an incredible amount of defensiveness, irritation and frustration from many parents when you mention that you simply don't adopt the practice of TV/video-games in your household. It makes you wonder why.

Well, the screen is just about the only thing that video games have in common with television.

At the top of the spectrum of intellectual activities outside of school, I'd say you have reading novels, literature, philosophy, history, etc., reading the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, or the Economist. Below that you have advanced strategy and simulation video games, or older games like chess. You also have television and movies with complex adult themes, and history or science documentaries. All of these have a tremendous impact on critical thinking skills.

You have a middle range with things like watching sports, reading magazines, comedy shows on TV, board games like Monopoly and Life, the majority of video games, etc. -- not completely mindless entertainment, but definitely a mixed bag when it comes to developing intellectually.

Closer to the bottom end of the intellectual spectrum, you have internet porn, shoot-em-up video games, violent action movies, sniffing glue, and kids lighting firecrackers in their hands to see if it blows their hands off.


So my point is, by lumping all "Video games and TV" together at the bottom end of that spectrum, you're actually depriving them of a great deal of intellectual stimulation. If only reality was as simple as it was in your mind.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by syracusa

And I didn't disagree with you. My initial argument was an answer to the question of WHY exactly (not HOW exactly!) parents push for the "superior" child.

I do not disagree with your assessment of WHY. I think your analysis is right on target.

Originally Posted by syracusa

We simply do what we deem best to make our children very comfortable with school and to give them other things to do outside of TV and video games. To us, the TV/video-game thing is not just a school-performance related aspect but also a cultural one.

You're European right? I am not sure what culture in Europe you are from but I have spent some time in Europe and there is plenty of tv there and kids play video games there also.

Originally Posted by syracusa

(Note that I keep using this culturally irritating word - "superior" - ONLY because the OP used it and I want to keep it in context).

I understand.

Originally Posted by syracusa

If the TV was on all day or if he had video-games lying around or the computer at his disposal - I would guess he would pick those every time to the detriment of books, pen and paper.

Well-video games and tv are not an all or nothing proposition. There is a middle ground. You can limit something without forbidding it. My kids don't always choose video games or tv.

They like to swim and play pool basketball, play mini golf (we have a putting green in the back), play musical instruments, play lacrosse, football or soccer. The older ones go to the beach, see movies, etc...They also like to play video games and watch tv at times. They don't ALWAYS choose video games.

Originally Posted by syracusa

This is what I have seen with all other children I know who DO have unlimited access to such practices. They consistently pick those to the detriment of anything else.
You may know a different set of children and that's fine.

You can limit these things without banning them. I don't think my kids friends are somehow unique to suburban FL. They are pretty typical kids. They go to school, play sports or are in band, and they like to socialize. They are not perfect kids but most of them are high achievers despite being allowed access to tv and video games.

Originally Posted by syracusa

Ultimately, I will have to say I have noticed an incredible amount of defensiveness, irritation and frustration from many parents when you mention that you simply don't adopt the practice of TV/video-games in your household. It makes you wonder why.
Their reaction is always way more than just a shrug. They always make sure to let you know that "yeah, that's fine but don't you believe this will many them any "better" than Johnny, the electronics-addict boy !!"... (when research states otherwise) .... all the way to "you are damaging your poor children from not allowing them to be exposed to 'normal childhood' practices"!!. Never mind these practices were invented 2 minutes ago, historically speaking, and are anything BUT a part of a normal childhood.

In the end, parents will do what they think is best for their children.
Or what they think they can handle out of that "best".

I think people are defensive because they feel as if you are judging them as inadequate and become defensive as a result. New or not, video games are a normal part of growing up these days. Not being permitted to play video games sets your child apart from most other kids.

Your kids are small and there is little reason for them to play video games right now. However, as they get older I urge you to teach them to learn how to enjoy electronic media and incorporate it into their lives not to simply ban it as unacceptable.

[voice_of_reason]

Originally Posted by magoomafoo

As more and more new students come into our school, I'm noticing a parent push for superiority above all other students. Maybe it's just me but it seems alot of parents cannot accept average or even above average children anymore. Our school is very small, 170 students in a K-12. The average class size is 12. Out of the average 12, four are in gifted/talented. I see parents all the time pushing their children to be at the top, above everyone else in the class. It does cause animosity at time's. Not only between other parent's pushing for the same thing but between the student's as well. Of course I want my children to excell at all they do but reality sets in and I accept that they are not going to be #1 100% of the time at 100% of what they do. I feel the parents pushing for this are setting themselves and their children up for disappointment. It's almost like the parent who cannot accept a birth defect or disability in their child.

It's a rat race. If I have children I'm not sorry to say I will push them. If they are not motivated and don't want to work they won't succeed. My parents didn't push me and I think things were harder for me. Other parents bought tutors for their children, mortgaged their houses to get them into better schools etc. That is hard to compete with.

Why encourage a parent to disable their children by not pushing them? I've also noticed some teachers in highschool were really opposed to hard work; like why bother if your not a genuis

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

You're European right? I am not sure what culture in Europe you are from but I have spent some time in Europe and there is plenty of tv there and kids play video games there also.

Yes, I am. And that's what I have heard. I don't know how prevalent they are compared to the US, but I am pretty sure the use is on the increase. However, just because more Europeans are now jumping on that bandwagon doesn't mean I am ready to follow, out of sheer "European-ness".

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Well-video games and tv are not an all or nothing proposition. There is a middle ground. You can limit something without forbidding it. My kids don't always choose video games or tv.

Sure.
However, "limiting" is an option that usually BEGS for power struggles at all times; at least in my experience. I do not have time for power struggles. Creating a culture of complete disinterest in those things in the house is a better choice for us. We are not forbidding. We are simply not practicing them. I never "bad mouth" TV and video games in front of them. We simply don't choose the latter and use the former only on week-ends. They are not missing out on anything and they are not pushing for change.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

My kids don't always choose video games or tv.

Awesome for you guys.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I think people are defensive because they feel as if you are judging them as inadequate and become defensive as a result.

Why do they FEEL that way at the simple mention of our way?
Nobody judged anybody. I simply said what I do with mine.

Our mere choice feels like a personal affront to their lifestyle - you can say that. The problem then is with THEM, not with someone who is supposedly "judging them" by making a different choice. If these people were all truly convinced, deep down, that daily TV and video-games are great things to have in a child's life, they would not even waste time responding to a description of our choices. It would be a no-brainer and they would just shrug it. But the mountains of research and evidence in psychology, sociology, neuroscience, medicine, you name it - simply show that the TV/video-games combo is anything BUT a path to "great things in life" for a child. No, not even the so-called educational materials. The same educational things on TV or video can be covered in other ways, at much deeper levels, without the bells and whistles of colorful, moving images that always - ALWAYS! - tend to dumb down whatever is being shown, educational or not, thus building the expectation that education should be entertaining, colorful and poppY. OR ELSE.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Not being permitted to play video games sets your child apart from most other kids.

Since when is being like "most kids" such an important goal for one's child?
I thought America could bear some diversity, no?
If we can talk about gay vs. straight, country vs. urban, etc. why can't we also talk about other differences in lifestyle?
How about daily TV/video game watchers vs. non-TV/video game watchers (daily)? Why do they all have to be on the electronic kick every day?

My only consolation is that I see an increasing number of parents joining the small group that adopts such practices for their children. So I don't expect to be exactly alone. I am not now and hopefully, I won't be later either.

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by voice_of_reason

It's a rat race. If I have children I'm not sorry to say I will push them. If they are not motivated and don't want to work they won't succeed. My parents didn't push me and I think things were harder for me. Other parents bought tutors for their children, mortgaged their houses to get them into better schools etc. That is hard to compete with.

Why encourage a parent to disable their children by not pushing them? I've also noticed some teachers in highschool were really opposed to hard work; like why bother if your not a genuis

There's a huge difference between encouraging, motivating and pushing. When kids are young, you can do all three but once they are older they must be self-motivated to succeed. That means succeeding at what they want to do.

Anyone that parents multiple children knows that there is no set formula for that and believe me, unless they develop a game addiction, playing or not playing video games and watching tv doesn't even come into the picture, nor does the age of when they learned to read. I don't think there should be any animosity about parenting as long as we all realize that we're all in this together as parents that want to raise good children.

[voice_of_reason]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

There's a huge difference between encouraging, motivating and pushing. When kids are young, you can do all three but once they are older they must be self-motivated to succeed. That means succeeding at what they want to do.

Anyone that parents multiple children knows that there is no set formula for that and believe me, unless they develop a game addiction, playing or not playing video games and watching tv doesn't even come into the picture, nor does the age of when they learned to read. I don't think there should be any animosity about parenting as long as we all realize that we're all in this together as parents that want to raise good children.

Please I'm not sure I mentioned playing video games or watching TV. Growing up as a child I didn't even have video games since we couldn't really afford them. I hardly watched TV and didn't miss out on it. I hardly watch it now since I don't find much worth watching. It's not all about that though. My parents thought they were denying me a great childhood since there were not vast fields for me to play in. That is what they considered quality child time; exploring, meeting friends etc... but as you know many people in cities can not do that. They also worry about crime and the safety of the children.


Some parents are pretty lazy and what with teachers who have a defeatist attitude the child is at a disadvantage. We came from a poor background and what I noticed was that mainly the parents who pushed their children produced children who have succeeded at what they want to do. Our maths teacher at high school told us that she couldn't really see a great deal of the class doing anything academic; this was the top set. But almost everyone is studying in university or working in their fields. And really they are mostly from Asian families who *pushed*.

I think even a self-motivated child needs a bit of pushing. I should know, since I was one. If your child has goals and dreams/aspirations I believe in aiding them to the best of your ability because many people will not.