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Old 06-14-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
Reputation: 14495

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
Oh, I agree...but it's still disrepectful.
I'm sure it is. The charter school I worked for had the students write evaluations of the teachers every year. The students used it as their venting outlet. They said a lot of very disrespectful things. I had more than one student feel so badly about what they wrote that they came back to appologize later. Unfortunately, angry students can do a lot of damage.

I didn't even read the ones from the kids who did poorly in my classes. I knew what they said without reading them. I read the ones from the A and B students in my classes. If those kids had criticisms, they needed to be taken seriously.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,961 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
See, right there is why I don't think school should be compulsory beyond a certain age and/or certain minimal mastery of reading and basic math -- the four functions plus fractions and percentages (essentially everything before algebra).

Just full disclosure, Pythonis -- I am indeed one of those intellectual snobs, but the fact of the matter is, NO, just as college is not for everyone, neither is school beyond a certain point. We need brain surgeons, sure -- and we also need folks to flip burgers. I don't agree that flipping burgers automatically equals not amounting to anything in life, particularly if you're happy and satisfied with what you do. I think society is better off with ten happy burger-flippers than 100 miserable rocket scientists.
Just go to school till 8th grade, like the Amish, eh?

This isn't the place to debate the "college material" issue, but suffice it to say I don't buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Curricula is not the problem here and no one suggested it was.

The problem that many teachers see with MANY (not all) parents is that they are not fulfilling their role. And despite your misunderstanding, teachers do not expect parents to teach or develop curricula as their role.

What we expect is to have students feed, dressed appropriately, present, with homework completed, a full nights rest and an attitude indicative of the importance of education. Those expectations summed, are the parental role in education.

Maybe you personally meet all of those expectations every day. Many parents do not. That is where the "blame" comes from, though that is not what I would call it in the slightest.

So whose responsibility is your child's behavior? Yours? His? or the schools?
The bold is where I part company with you. It's not MANY, it's a few. And before you say, "what do you know about this, Katiana, you're only a dumb parent and you only know your own kids and your own (well, maybe a few other people's also) parenting", let me say I have worked in pediatrics and maternal/child health for the majority of my 40 year career in nursing. I have never seen all these examples of "bad" parenting that you guys on this forum bring up daily, not even when I was a visiting nurse in the ghettos. Virtually ALL parents care for their kids. Virtually ALL parents want what's best for their kids.

Working with kids naturally involves parents, too. It's an occupational hazard to get annoyed with parents. My kids have also worked with kids/parents in childcare, daycare, etc. It's easy to feel that parents get in the way of one's work. One has to remind oneself that the parents do want what's best for their kids.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:56 PM
 
613 posts, read 807,669 times
Reputation: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
So only people who are completely in agreement with the OP are allowed to point out the flaw in your logic? I missed where that is stated in the TOS. My mistake.
The flaw in my logic? You mean the logical statement that just as parents can not solely blame teachers for a broken education system, neither should teachers SOLELY blame parents? Is that the logic you are talking about, because I believe you stated this very thing just a few posts ago!

Or the logic that if teachers want respect from the parents that they need to GIVE respect to the parents as well?

Please enlighten me on my flawed logic, because the above to me sounds like basic common sense
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Just go to school till 8th grade, like the Amish, eh?

This isn't the place to debate the "college material" issue, but suffice it to say I don't buy it.



The bold is where I part company with you. It's not MANY, it's a few. And before you say, "what do you know about this, Katiana, you're only a dumb parent and you only know your own kids and your own (well, maybe a few other people's also) parenting", let me say I have worked in pediatrics and maternal/child health for the majority of my 40 year career in nursing. I have never seen all these examples of "bad" parenting that you guys on this forum bring up daily, not even when I was a visiting nurse in the ghettos. Virtually ALL parents care for their kids. Virtually ALL parents want what's best for their kids.

Working with kids naturally involves parents, too. It's an occupational hazard to get annoyed with parents. My kids have also worked with kids/parents in childcare, daycare, etc. It's easy to feel that parents get in the way of one's work. One has to remind oneself that the parents do want what's best for their kids.
The percentage of bad parents depends on geography. There are very few bad parents in the school I teach in now. The charter school I taught in was a different story. Now, I'm defining bad as parents who don't teach their children to respect teachers and those in authority. The ones who think their children should be respected before teachers are (I've been told by parents that I OWE their child respect but I don't deserve respect until I've earned it from their child ). The ones who don't make their children do homework and study. The ones who blame teachers when their children fail.

The problem here is the definition of bad parenting. From the perspective of the medical community, I'm willing to bet that children who are well fed, clothed and kept clean are assumed to have good parents. Those same parents may be the ones telling the teacher it's her fault Johnny failed.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post
The flaw in my logic? You mean the logical statement that just as parents can not solely blame teachers for a broken education system, neither should teachers SOLELY blame parents? Is that the logic you are talking about, because I believe you stated this very thing just a few posts ago!

Or the logic that if teachers want respect from the parents that they need to GIVE respect to the parents as well?

Please enlighten me on my flawed logic, because the above to me sounds like basic common sense
Parents get the same respect that all human beings get from me. Anything beyond that needs to be earned. It's not like becomming a parent makes one respect worthy. All you have to do to become a parent is have sex.

Why do I expect respect as a teacher? Because I have actually done something to earn my position. To get this job I had to get two degrees, take 4 state exams, pass a background check and a drug screening. When parents have to go to school to become parents, take exams to get certified, pass background and drug tests, I'll afford them the same respect I have for teachers. I do have more respect for people who have demonstrated character and/or earned their positions, however, I don't disrespect parents. All people deserve basic respect.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,961 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The percentage of bad parents depends on geography. There are very few bad parents in the school I teach in now. The charter school I taught in was a different story. Now, I'm defining bad as parents who don't teach their children to respect teachers and those in authority. The ones who think their children should be respected before teachers are (I've been told by parents that I OWE their child respect but I don't deserve respect until I've earned it from their child ). The ones who don't make their children do homework and study. The ones who blame teachers when their children fail.

The problem here is the definition of bad parenting. From the perspective of the medical community, I'm willing to bet that children who are well fed, clothed and kept clean are assumed to have good parents.
We've had these conversations before, LOL, about the supposed "difference" between parents in a health care (not medical) situation and education setting. It's not that different. I work triage some days, and parents call us for advice which they often then don't want to take. You sometimes wonder why they called! Often parents want us to prescribe antibiotics, psychiatric meds, asthma meds, birth control, etc w/o seeing the kids. They want us to order tests we don't think the kids need, again many times w/o seeing them. We have our share of immunization "conscientious objectors". OTOH, some don't want to do the interventions we recommend, or give their kids the meds we recommend. They either want their kids seen for stuff we don't think warrants a visit, or they don't want to bring them in for concerns we find serious. And if you think teachers don't get any respect, try walking into a room with a tray of immunizations and have the parent say, "Here's the mean nurse with your shots".

Plus, the parents are right there with the kids during the visit (for the vast majority of kids). They want to tell us how to do our jobs. It's not that much different, only the setting is different. My kids who've done child care, day camps, overnight camps, coaching, etc say the same thing.

Yes, it gets frustrating, but we do have a company philosphy that parents want what's best for their kids.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
We've had these conversations before, LOL, about the supposed "difference" between parents in a health care (not medical) situation and education setting. It's not that different. I work triage some days, and parents call us for advice which they often then don't want to take. You sometimes wonder why they called! Often parents want us to prescribe antibiotics, psychiatric meds, asthma meds, birth control, etc w/o seeing the kids. They want us to order tests we don't think the kids need, again many times w/o seeing them. We have our share of immunization "conscientious objectors". OTOH, some don't want to do the interventions we recommend, or give their kids the meds we recommend. They either want their kids seen for stuff we don't think warrants a visit, or they don't want to bring them in for concerns we find serious. And if you think teachers don't get any respect, try walking into a room with a tray of immunizations and have the parent say, "Here's the mean nurse with your shots".

Plus, the parents are right there with the kids during the visit (for the vast majority of kids). They want to tell us how to do our jobs. It's not that much different, only the setting is different. My kids who've done child care, day camps, overnight camps, coaching, etc say the same thing.

Yes, it gets frustrating, but we do have a company philosphy that parents want what's best for their kids.

My point, which you missed, is the definition of "good parent" is different. Teachers assess parenting WRT the ability to educate children. Are the children arriving at school having had a good nights sleep, fed and with the proper tools? Did mom and dad make sure they did their homework yesterday. If I, as a teacher, call mom and dad, are they going to deal with the issue I'm having with their child or just blame me?

Some parents who look like good parents when you walk by their houses are really lousy parents to deal with if you are a teacher.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:37 PM
 
8,305 posts, read 8,580,329 times
Reputation: 25924
Quote:
See, right there is why I don't think school should be compulsory beyond a certain age and/or certain minimal mastery of reading and basic math -- the four functions plus fractions and percentages (essentially everything before algebra).

Just full disclosure, Pythonis -- I am indeed one of those intellectual snobs, but the fact of the matter is, NO, just as college is not for everyone, neither is school beyond a certain point. We need brain surgeons, sure -- and we also need folks to flip burgers. I don't agree that flipping burgers automatically equals not amounting to anything in life, particularly if you're happy and satisfied with what you do. I think society is better off with ten happy burger-flippers than 100 miserable rocket scientists.
I have a little different conception of what education is about in America. You see, some of us were raised with antiquated notions like "all men (read women too) are created equal". Some of us want this country to resemble something closer to a democracy than an oligarchy. A few of us still believe that the environment kids are raised and educated in is as crucial as the grey matter that they inherited from their folks. My father wouldn't have even gotten into college because he was a poor farm boy in Idaho. Than something called the GI Bill intervened which paid his college tuition. That poor farm boy ended up becoming a federal judge before he died. In the process, he paid thousands of dollars to the US Treasury in taxes that he wouldn't have earned if he had been condemned to a life of flipping burgers or picking sugar beets.

I realize these attitudes are not popular among many teachers in gifted child programs. Don't feel bad though, I think that most conservatives think about the same.

My idea is a little different. It would be let's put together a world class education program for all the kids. Let's educate more engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and physicians. If 80% of kids are having trouble doing college Algebra when they get out of high school, instead of blaming the kids, let's put a real math program together that offers review and covers the same material more than one time. Let's not sit around and ***** about all the dumb kids out there.

College is not for everyone. However, many people don't get a chance to find out what they are missing because of cost issues and "elitist attitudes".

When some of these people graduate there may not be jobs for them. You know what? Having a pool of talented college educated students like this will in my opinion eventually create its own demand for their services. Maybe some salaries will have to come down. However, imagine having engineers involved in simple projects like home construction or light manufacturing. Imagine all the new software that will be developed for computers.

And, in doing all that America may yet turn out to be the only country on earth that kept more promises than it broke.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,961 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
My point, which you missed, is the definition of "good parent" is different. Teachers assess parenting WRT the ability to educate children. Are the children arriving at school having had a good nights sleep, fed and with the proper tools? Did mom and dad make sure they did their homework yesterday. If I, as a teacher, call mom and dad, are they going to deal with the issue I'm having with their child or just blame me?

Some parents who look like good parents when you walk by their houses are really lousy parents to deal with if you are a teacher.
Sorry, I don't buy the "that's different" idea. It might be different parents who don't take the doctor's advice, then again, maybe it's the same ones who don't do the above. The principal is the same. We're working with people trying to get them to change their behavior and they don't always want to do it the way we think it should be done. It doesn't make them "bad" parents. You don't think we don't get parents blasting at us? A parent with a sick child can be a stick of dynamite ready to go off. Forget diplomatic.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:44 PM
 
1,327 posts, read 3,274,260 times
Reputation: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
We've had these conversations before, LOL, about the supposed "difference" between parents in a health care (not medical) situation and education setting. It's not that different. I work triage some days, and parents call us for advice which they often then don't want to take. You sometimes wonder why they called! Often parents want us to prescribe antibiotics, psychiatric meds, asthma meds, birth control, etc w/o seeing the kids. They want us to order tests we don't think the kids need, again many times w/o seeing them. We have our share of immunization "conscientious objectors". OTOH, some don't want to do the interventions we recommend, or give their kids the meds we recommend. They either want their kids seen for stuff we don't think warrants a visit, or they don't want to bring them in for concerns we find serious. And if you think teachers don't get any respect, try walking into a room with a tray of immunizations and have the parent say, "Here's the mean nurse with your shots".

Plus, the parents are right there with the kids during the visit (for the vast majority of kids). They want to tell us how to do our jobs. It's not that much different, only the setting is different. My kids who've done child care, day camps, overnight camps, coaching, etc say the same thing.

Yes, it gets frustrating, but we do have a company philosphy that parents want what's best for their kids.

I was labeled a bad parent by one of my daughters doctor, because I had questions about the medication they wanted to put her on. The side effect included death at injection site (I'm suppose to give the shot at home) cancer, etc.. When I asked the doctor about the medication before I even knew the side effects all he did was leave the room and bring my back a piece of paper which I had to read later at home. She can't take the medication if she is sick as well, and every time I brought her in to start the medication she had some type of illness, because the meds she was already on suppressed her immune system.
So, it's a two way street.
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