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Old 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
 
613 posts, read 487,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Parents get the same respect that all human beings get from me. Anything beyond that needs to be earned. It's not like becomming a parent makes one respect worthy. All you have to do to become a parent is have sex.
It may be easy to become a parent, but it is not easy to parent.

At the very least, a teacher should respect the fact that the parent knows their child best.

So how, exactly, does a parent earn your respect?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Why do I expect respect as a teacher? Because I have actually done something to earn my position. To get this job I had to get two degrees, take 4 state exams, pass a background check and a drug screening.
With all due respect, getting a teaching degree is not all that difficult. Neither are the state exams. Passing a background check and a drug screening is really nothing to brag about either; that should be a given.

Also, getting a teaching degree, or a degree in any area, does not guarantee you will be an effective teacher. Likewise, someone who has trouble passing the state exams does not automatically make a lousy teacher.

I have a friend who is an AWESOME teacher! She had difficulty passing her state exams for no reason other than the fact that she was a lousy test taker. She would just stress and panic and have such anxiety over the exams that it took her several tries before she passed. She had to work hard at passing those tests.

Yet, once she became a teacher, she was an extremely effective one and it came naturally to her.

I, OTOH, passed the exams with flying colors, no sweat. Yet when it came to teaching I usually deferred to my friend for advice on teaching strategies. It did not come naturally to me and I had to work much harder than her to be effective in the classroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
When parents have to go to school to become parents, take exams to get certified, pass background and drug tests, I'll afford them the same respect I have for teachers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't disrespect parents.
You just don't have as much respect for them, is that it? I think you're "eye roll" conveys exactly just how much respect you DON'T have for parents.

And FYI, parents pick up on this fact VERY quickly.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,296 posts, read 17,040,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post
It may be easy to become a parent, but it is not easy to parent.

At the very least, a teacher should respect the fact that the parent knows their child best.

So how, exactly, does a parent earn your respect?




With all due respect, getting a teaching degree is not all that difficult. Neither are the state exams. Passing a background check and a drug screening is really nothing to brag about either; that should be a given.

Also, getting a teaching degree, or a degree in any area, does not guarantee you will be an effective teacher. Likewise, someone who has trouble passing the state exams does not automatically make a lousy teacher.

I have a friend who is an AWESOME teacher! She had difficulty passing her state exams for no reason other than the fact that she was a lousy test taker. She would just stress and panic and have such anxiety over the exams that it took her several tries before she passed. She had to work hard at passing those tests.

Yet, once she became a teacher, she was an extremely effective one and it came naturally to her.

I, OTOH, passed the exams with flying colors, no sweat. Yet when it came to teaching I usually deferred to my friend for advice on teaching strategies. It did not come naturally to me and I had to work much harder than her to be effective in the classroom.





You just don't have as much respect for them, is that it? I think you're "eye roll" conveys exactly just how much respect you DON'T have for parents.

And FYI, parents pick up on this fact VERY quickly.
I have as much respect for parents as I do any person off of the street until a parent does something to show they, in particular, are due more respect. All persons are deserving of basic respect. Having a baby doesn't entitle you to more respect.

Why do you think parents are due more respect than anyone else?

I'll agree that getting a teaching degree is easy but I got mine on top of a masters in chemical engineering. I am employed by a district that requires both a stand alone chemistry (chemical engineering in my case) degree and a teaching certificat to teach. I have accomplished something to be in the position I'm in. Even an easy degree shows that you stick with things and have some basic level of itelligence. That's more than 75% of the population has done so it is something.
Teachers, in general have, at least, finished a program and passed their exams. Easy or not, they have done what society has determined it takes to become a teacher. Society decided what they'd do to gain this position. You'd think they'd respect those who have gone through the motions.

I am owed no special consideration because I'm a parent. I am not to be held in esteem because I'm a parent. Not even if I happen to be a good parent. I'm supposed to be a good parent. I did nothing special by having children. I proved nothing by having children other than the plumbing works. I do expect to be treated with basic respect from my children's teachers. I also expect to be treated with professional respect because of my profession and I afford professional respect to other professionals.

Yes, I give more weight to the comments of a college graduate than I do a high school drop out but they all get basic respect just for existing.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:12 AM
 
2,182 posts, read 1,473,546 times
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This is the lead story on our local paper:

Children found in squalor; mom faces felony charge | The Clarion-Ledger | clarionledger.com

And here are the sheriff's comments about the situation:

Quote:
The Sheriff's Department has not been called to the house before, however, Glaze said.

"We see this from time to time. It's certainly not the rule of what we see but more often than we would like to say, there are children in our community living this way. We are very concerned about that. The reason this unit exists is to help children in this shape," he said.
Who is to blame here, if not the parents? I would like to post this in the Inner-City Schools thread, but I believe that most posters will read both threads, and I want to avoid a redundant post.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:28 PM
 
613 posts, read 487,396 times
Reputation: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
This is the lead story on our local paper:

Children found in squalor; mom faces felony charge | The Clarion-Ledger | clarionledger.com

And here are the sheriff's comments about the situation:



Who is to blame here, if not the parents? I would like to post this in the Inner-City Schools thread, but I believe that most posters will read both threads, and I want to avoid a redundant post.
Special education teacher charged with abuse - JSOnline

The Dorchester Star - Cambridge, MD > Archives > News > C-SDHS teacher charged with abuse of two 17-year-old students (http://www.dorchesterstar.com/articles/2011/05/27/news/170332.txt - broken link)

Teacher charged in child abuse network | The Australian

And your point?

And I'm sure this one's a real effective teacher:

Teacher's tasteless Facebook joke may get her fired - NYPOST.com


And just in case anyone misses the point of this post, it's to point out that just because a small minority of parents are awful and/or abusive does not mean that ALL or MOST parents are awful and/or abusive.

Same for teachers; just because some teachers are awful and/or abusive, it doesn't mean ALL teachers are.

But what I can say is that all the preparation in the world will not guarantee a child will be successful in school if they have lousy teachers. It won't matter one iota how involved the parent is if the child has a lousy teacher, the child will probably struggle.

Oh, AND the lousy teacher will blame, you guessed it, the PARENTS. How convenient.
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:29 PM
 
613 posts, read 487,396 times
Reputation: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I have as much respect for parents as I do any person off of the street until a parent does something to show they, in particular, are due more respect.
Nice to know a teacher has as much respect for a parent of ONE OF THEIR STUDENT'S as a stranger off the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Why do you think parents are due more respect than anyone else?
Because, like it or not, you are forced into a relationship with YOUR STUDENT'S parents, regardless of how little or how much communication you have with them. The parents are entrusting their kids to you and entrusting that you are a dedicated and effective teacher who has your student's (THEIR children's) best interests at heart.

And yes, I think YOUR student's PARENTS deserve more respect than a STRANGER off the street.

And a parent needs to PROVE to you first that they deserve more respect? But the parent should INSTANTLY respect you because you have a teaching degree? How do you know the parent isn't a nuclear physicist? Or a brain surgeon? And why should that even matter? Does your level of respect climb with each successive degree a person has? Do you think it's impossible to be a high school drop out and still be successful? Do think a SAHM deserves less respect than a working mom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'll agree that getting a teaching degree is easy but I got mine on top of a masters in chemical engineering. I am employed by a district that requires both a stand alone chemistry (chemical engineering in my case) degree and a teaching certificat to teach. I have accomplished something to be in the position I'm in. Even an easy degree shows that you stick with things and have some basic level of itelligence. That's more than 75% of the population has done so it is something.
Maybe you should ask your student's parents to send in a short bio of themselves listing their education, this way you'll know right off the bat which ones deserve respect and which ones don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I am owed no special consideration because I'm a parent. I am not to be held in esteem because I'm a parent.
Who said anything about special consideration? Who said anything about being held in esteem for being a parent?

You have a HUGE chip on your shoulder for some reason.

Try having respect for your student's parents until they give you a reason NOT to. Yes, as a teacher and a professional, you should be coming from the side that YOUR student's parents deserve respect for entrusting their children's education to you until they give you a reason NOT to. Just as your student's parents should respect you because you are helping to educate THEIR child. I would imagine that most parents give you more respect than a STRANGER off the street; at least until you give them a reason NOT to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Yes, I give more weight to the comments of a college graduate than I do a high school drop out but they all get basic respect just for existing.
Wow, that's big of you.
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,296 posts, read 17,040,162 times
Reputation: 11741
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post
Nice to know a teacher has as much respect for a parent of ONE OF THEIR STUDENT'S as a stranger off the street.



Because, like it or not, you are forced into a relationship with YOUR STUDENT'S parents, regardless of how little or how much communication you have with them. The parents are entrusting their kids to you and entrusting that you are a dedicated and effective teacher who has your student's (THEIR children's) best interests at heart.

And yes, I think YOUR student's PARENTS deserve more respect than a STRANGER off the street.

And a parent needs to PROVE to you first that they deserve more respect? But the parent should INSTANTLY respect you because you have a teaching degree? How do you know the parent isn't a nuclear physicist? Or a brain surgeon? And why should that even matter? Does your level of respect climb with each successive degree a person has? Do you think it's impossible to be a high school drop out and still be successful? Do think a SAHM deserves less respect than a working mom?



Maybe you should ask your student's parents to send in a short bio of themselves listing their education, this way you'll know right off the bat which ones deserve respect and which ones don't.



Who said anything about special consideration? Who said anything about being held in esteem for being a parent?

You have a HUGE chip on your shoulder for some reason.

Try having respect for your student's parents until they give you a reason NOT to. Yes, as a teacher and a professional, you should be coming from the side that YOUR student's parents deserve respect for entrusting their children's education to you until they give you a reason NOT to. Just as your student's parents should respect you because you are helping to educate THEIR child. I would imagine that most parents give you more respect than a STRANGER off the street; at least until you give them a reason NOT to.



Wow, that's big of you.
Um, I told you I have respect for my student's parents like I do anyone. Where are you getting I don't respect them?

Please note, I said nothing about students. The question was about parents. I respect parents like I would anyone. Why would I treat them differently?

Um, you're the one bellyaching that I don't respect parents when I've told you I respect them like I do anyone else. If you don't think they deserve special consideration for being parents, why are you on the warpath here?

I would expect that most parents would give me more respect than a stranger off the street. I'm their child's teacher. I was chosen to do this job. The adminstrators and the school board thought enough of me to give me this job. That, alone, elevates me above a person off of the street. The assumption SHOULD BE that I am capable of doing my job, unfortunately, it isn't. Most people seem to assume the opposite.
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:53 PM
 
3,568 posts, read 3,208,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post

I know of no other 'profession' where on a daily basis the employees are whining on a public forum about how bad they have it and how it's everybody else's fault
Then something must be true in the whining.
Are you implying that only teaching attracts people of such poor character and all other professions are populated with knights of pure virtue?

How embarrassing.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,296 posts, read 17,040,162 times
Reputation: 11741
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Then something must be true in the whining.
Are you implying that only teaching attracts people of such poor character and all other professions are populated with knights of pure virtue?

How embarrassing.
If we really are the only ones whining, maybe it's because we have something to whine about.

I, for one, wouldn't be whining if the government, parents and society at large weren't blaming me for and judging my performance on things I have no control over. I really want to go back to the day when I was held accountable for what I do instead of what others don't do. Enginering is looking better and better...
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:14 PM
 
3,568 posts, read 3,208,960 times
Reputation: 3246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
But the parents often are to blame. Certainly WAY MORE to blame than teachers.
This thread is way too long to read post by post - but just in case this point has not yet been made: has anybody noticed that this is a devilish game of pitting parents and teachers against one another?

1. Teachers are overwhelmed. Rightfully so. Anyone who argues otherwise is an authentic idiot. Enough sound arguments have been brought as to why this is true of teachers today - so I am not going to make a synthesis here.

2. Parents too are overwhelmed. Rightfully so. Anyone who argues otherwise is an idiot of similar proportions with the idiot above.
Parents are busier, more stressed out, harder pressed to provide and remain competitive in ferocious labor markets, with fewer and fewer support systems around. Don't expect them to send you at school kids right out of a Mary Poppins movie.

Like the sort-of "conspiracy theorist" that I am, have always been and will always remain - I blame the rigid structures created by the existence of now morbidly obese cats. As always. Only fat cats stand to gain from such terrible pitting of two largely helpless demographic groups (teachers and parents) against one another.

"Parents don't take responsibilitttttyyyyyyyyyyyy!!"

"Teachers don't accept accountabiiiilllittttttyyyyy!"

Yeah. I know. This is the level of a Kindergarten quarrel.

If you need some steam released, some anger distributed, at least direct it to the right factions.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,296 posts, read 17,040,162 times
Reputation: 11741
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
This thread is way too long to read post by post - but just in case this point has not yet been made: has anybody noticed that this is a devilish game of pitting parents and teachers against one another?

1. Teachers are overwhelmed. Rightfully so. Anyone who argues otherwise is an authentic idiot. Enough sound arguments have been brought as to why this is true of teachers today - so I am not going to make a synthesis here.

2. Parents too are overwhelmed. Rightfully so. Anyone who argues otherwise is an idiot of similar proportions with the idiot above.
Parents are busier, more stressed out, harder pressed to provide and remain competitive in ferocious labor markets, with fewer and fewer support systems around. Don't expect them to send you at school kids right out of a Mary Poppins movie.

Like the sort-of "conspiracy theorist" that I am, have always been and will always remain - I blame the rigid structures created by the existence of now morbidly obese cats. As always. Only fat cats stand to gain from such terrible pitting of two largely helpless demographic groups (teachers and parents) against one another.

"Parents don't take responsibilitttttyyyyyyyyyyyy!!"

"Teachers don't accept accountabiiiilllittttttyyyyy!"

Yeah. I know. This is the level of a Kindergarten quarrel.

If you need some steam released, some anger distributed, at least direct it to the right factions.
Busy or not, as a parent, the buck stops with me. Teachers cannot individualize education to every student. When my dd's reading bothered me and the school said she was fine, I went for a second opinion. Turns out she had a serious reading problem. One that often goes unnoticed until high school when everyone is, suddenly, asking "Why does Johnny read only on a 5th grade level?". My dd could read because she was memorizing words. She could not decode. Her ability to memorize words would top out in about 5th grade and then she would have fallen behind.

While it would have been nice to have had the school diagnose this, they can't. My dd's teachers have 30+ students in each class. Even in elementary school that works out to less than 10 minutes per child per day (by the time you include specials). How can a teacher assess every single issue in that time?

I teach 140+ students per day in 6, 50 minute periods. I don't even have two minutes per student per day . I teach classes not individuals. There's nothing else I can do. Some kids get more attention than others but that means some get less.

Parents, OTOH, even if working 10 hours a day, have more time with their kids than teachers do. Kids spend 75% of their waking time outside of school. Even if they only spend half of that with their parents, parents are way ahead.

I've been a full time working mom since dd#1 was 10 weeks old. NO ONE will come even close to the time I've had with her since she was born. Not day care providers and not teachers. At the end of the day, my kids will have spent, by far, more time with me than anyone else (their dad comes very close but even he doesn't make it). Yes, I am responsible for their educations. I am closest to my kids. I know when things aren't working for them. I'm in position to supplement their educations as needed. I'm in position to go to bat for them with the school. I'm the one with the time every night to make sure homework is done (I'm doing my job right now by tying up the computer until dd#1 finishes her chemistry that she has to turn in tommorrow (last day of school and the last chance to pull up grades. The things I do for my kids ))

I hold my dd's teachers accountable for teaching the material in a meaningful way. I've had science teachers teach my kids things that were wrong and they get drop kicked into tomorrow for doing that. The one thing I expect from my dd's teachers is they know their material inside out and upside down. THAT is their job. To know the material they are teaching my child and to know how to present it but that is where their responsibility ends. They are not responsible if my child cops an attitude and doesn't do her work. I step in when that happens and do what I can. Sometimes the what I can do is let my child fail (we've chosen to let dd#1 learn the hard way. We've given her enough rope to hang herself by and she's doing a great job . The price will be not attending the college of her choice as her GPA has fallen too low. Perhaps she'll realize the importance of learning at the local community college.

I do not blame dd's teachers for her failures. It's not her teacher's responsibility to deal with this. It's mine. I've chosen natural consquences. She'll repeat classes. She'll go to summer school. She'll attend a community college until her attitude changes....I suppose I could beat her but she's bigger than me now....
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