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Old 06-16-2011, 01:30 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post
Is you saying us parents ain't got no edjucashun?
No she is saying that just being a parent does not mean you are a professional educator.

Teachers deserve professional respect because of their career and education in that area. You deserve professional respect in whatever career you are in. But being a parent does not have a professional standard, respect as a parent is based on a non-professional standard.

Professional respect and parental respect are not the same thing.

For example, I have a student whose mother is very high up in the state government. Based on her professional track record I do not have a huge amount of professional respect for her but as a mother she is an exceptional parent whose parenting skills I respect intensely.

I also know a scientist who is an exceptional researcher and an indifferent parent. He has my utmost professional respect and not a large amount of respect for his role as a parent.

A certified, degreed teacher is due a certain amount of professional respect just based on their professional credentials (despite your inaccurate portrayal of the ease with which they are attained). Since ANY person can become a parent without any training or credentials, respect for their most important of roles in a child's life needs to come from their actions.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,722,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LABART View Post
The more that I read this thread and your posts the more I dislike your pompous attitude. I can understand why you have problems with your students and their parents. I certainly would not like someone who thinks they are better than me because they have a higher education.
More education = more knowledge, but not compassion, empathy, and kindness or common sense.
I'm sorry my GED is not good enough to earn me respect, and my years of hard work and sacrifice just does not make me a decent enough person to speak to the likes of you and yours.
I have personally known a teacher who got addicted to oxycotin, and spoiled her own child and verbally abused her husband. I guess she deserves more respect than me because she has a degree.
I have known a man who worked for NASA and was a rocket engineer who couldn't put together a play set.
I know a doctor who likes to drink too much vodka and smokes pot.
I know a judge who sits on the bench and passes judgement on everyone and then goes off to the bars and gets plastered and then drives himself home.
Here are just a few examples of "educated" people that I do not have respect for because of their actions not their degrees.
It is not pompus to recognize that someone who is accomplished has proven something and someone who isn't hasn't. Given a choice between taking advice from someone who is accomplished and soemone who is not, I'm going with accomplished. There are a lot of people out there who think they know things they don't know a thing about. You have to do to prove yourself.

What do you think one degreed person getting addicted to drugs proves? You will find substance abuse in all levels. I never said that is was a guarantee that someone wouldn't abuse substances. I'm just going to bet with the people who have proven themselves over the ones who haven't. Odds have it, I'll be right. No matter what I do I'll never be right 100% of the time because nothing is a guarantee. I never said it was. All you can do is stack the odds in your favor. So, the opinon of a degreed and experienced teacher beats a parents opinion hands down when it comes to how I run my class.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:32 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summers19 View Post
I totally agree with this. My sons know that school is the most important thing in their lives right now. Their father and I have instilled the value of education since day one. If they falter in their grades even just a bit, (anything lower than a B in homework, we expect A's for their quarter grades and final grades), video games and other priviledges are taken away for the weekend. We also don't allow video games at all during the school week (M-Th). We set a high standard that we expect them to live up to. And most of the time they do.
Kudos! I wish more families valued education they way you do.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,722,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summers19 View Post
That just stinks, Ivorytickler. I feel for you.

When I attend parent/teacher conferences, I respect what the teachers have to say and gladly implement their suggestions. I assume the teachers have my child's best interest in mind and I will take their advice, suggestions, etc.

We teach our kids to respect authority. The teacher is the authority of the subjects she teaches and the authority in the classroom. Some teachers are better at teaching than others, have more enthusiasm, and may have better social skills than others. But the teachers we've encountered so far have been really good and we're quite pleased with them.
Fortunately, I don't make too many calls home. At least not this year. Next year will be a different story. I'm teaching the lower level chemistry course too. Last year, I had to make several calls home a week. Some were funny...like the mom who stopped telling me what her daughter did and started telling me what SHE did on her daughter's project (the daughter failed). This mom was PO'd that HER project got a failing grade.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:38 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by LABART View Post
The more that I read this thread and your posts the more I dislike your pompous attitude. I can understand why you have problems with your students and their parents. I certainly would not like someone who thinks they are better than me because they have a higher education.
More education = more knowledge, but not compassion, empathy, and kindness or common sense.
I'm sorry my GED is not good enough to earn me respect, and my years of hard work and sacrifice just does not make me a decent enough person to speak to the likes of you and yours.
I have personally known a teacher who got addicted to oxycotin, and spoiled her own child and verbally abused her husband. I guess she deserves more respect than me because she has a degree.
I have known a man who worked for NASA and was a rocket engineer who couldn't put together a play set.
I know a doctor who likes to drink too much vodka and smokes pot.
I know a judge who sits on the bench and passes judgement on everyone and then goes off to the bars and gets plastered and then drives himself home.
Here are just a few examples of "educated" people that I do not have respect for because of their actions not their degrees.
Again you seem to be confusing professional respect and respect for ones personal and parenting choices.

I respect the fact that you got your GED, so many people drop out and disparage the GED process that it is an achievement in and of itself. I also respect the fact that you turned that GED into a successful career. That is professional respect.

I also would have very little respect for the drug addicted teacher on both a personal and parental level.

Those are different types of respect. But I have said it before and I will say it again, just being a parent does not make you deserving of parental respect. Even addicts have children. What makes some deserving of respect as a parent is their parenting itself.

Teachers are professionals and like all people who are professionals (from plumbers to doctors) they should be accord the professional respect due their professional achievements.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:43 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It's an issue I see with parents who don't have an edjumkation. Educated parents don't seem to throw their weight around. At least not most. We have a few but most of the educated parents are respectful of teachers. Unfortunately, only about 25% of the population is educated.
I have to chime in that I have found no correlation between parental education and their attitude towards teachers. Granted the vast majority of my parents are at least college grads but just on an anecdotal level I have had multiple "hover parents" who could not stop mentioning their PhDs.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:54 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,187,771 times
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Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
I know a teacher who has attained her degree and has risen to the position of principal. Once she got her degree, she simply -stopped learning. She honestly believes that she is better than all of the students and parents because of that degree alone, and has no hesitation about telling them so. Yet - She couldn't make a phone call on her new Blackberry because her daughter hadn't programmed the phone numbers she needed into it. She can't send out emails to the teachers she supervises because she doesn't know how to do a mass emailing - even though her email groups were set up for her in her email program so that she could email "all staff", just the "elementary staff" or just the "high school staff" with the mere click of a mouse. She is terrified of violent students and will actually flee the campus when one becomes threatening or violent, leaving teachers, even office and substitute staff without degrees to deal with him/her. Yet she is the first to sign up for every single class or seminar required by the state, on everything from bullying to attendance - especially if they are a minimum of two hours away, so she can get a motel room (taxpayer-paid-for), blow off half the class, and go shopping. No matter how many complaints are filed against her - even from parents of students who are victimized by the bullies of whom she is terrified - she has tenure and cannot be removed. She makes "hard-and-fast rules" - and immediately breaks them when she wants to make exceptions for students and teachers who are her 'pets'. She constantly sends out letters with grammatical and spelling errors to not only parents but to legislators, other principals, and teachers in her own and other school systems. She has no idea that she is not only an embarrassment to the school system, but actually endangers students by her refusal to follow simple safety and disciplinary measures (all of which have been offered in the seminars that she 'attends').

These are the types of teachers whom parents should "respect", simply because they went to school and earned a degree? No, I don't think so.

Teachers who work under this sort of "supervision" have two choices - they can either 1) teach students with all of their hearts and passion, have classroom rules and policies that directly mirror not only board policies but their own education, go to the seminars and update their education consistently and utilize what they have learned to better instruct and control their students - and be repetitively/alternately vilified, ignored, chastized, and even written up by the principal or 2) they can go along to get along, follow the principal in all of her ineffective and supercilious maunderings and changeable attitudes, catering to 'chosen' students while vilifying others, and buying into the whole emotional, bureaucratic mismanagement and confusion.

Often, if you want to find out why some teachers are really good and responsible, have no fears about relating to parents, while others seem dismayed over the interaction or even refuse to deal with parents of students, you will find that it is the support -or lack thereof- from administration that they receive. There are (or should be) hard-and-fast rules, with hard-and-fast responsibilities and rewards as well as hard-and-fast consequences for all. Unfortunately, with the liberal influences of forgiveness, counseling instead of responsibility, lack of competition, and endless waffling on what are the realities of teaching and discipline, and with supervisors who have attained tenure and see no reason to extend themselves any further, teaching has become a dangerous and unfullfilling profession - unless you are at heart a bully who wants to achieve an administrative position to enforce your punitive demands and attitudes on others while demanding their "respect".

Yes, parents are responsible to see that their children show up to school to be alert, ready to learn, and accountable for their own progression and failures. To blame a teacher for the parents' failure to accept this responsibility is reprehensible. But until teachers are given backing by administrations, school boards, and even state and federal administrations, to demand and enforce accountability and personal responsibility from each and every student, we will see not only the further decline of education, but the promotion of schools as nothing more than socialization and equalization experiments, where everyone is 'entitled' to an education, whether they work to earn it or not, and where achievement is determined not by what the student scholastically accomplishes, but by how well he succumbs to the overbearing, emotionally manipulative attitudes of those who are involved in the bureaucracy of education not to educate, but to attain their own personal justifications and gratifications.

I.e.; small minds and petty, bureaucratic attitudes cannot produce great achievements, great students, or productive citizens, whether they have a piece of paper from a university or not.

JMHO.
I am not sure where anyone is asking you to give someone who is not acting professionally professional respect. But realistically, the majority of teachers and administrators do not act like the one above.

The best analogy I can think of would be if you hired a plumber. Would you read an article (or even a dozen on the internet) and think you now know as much about plumbing as they do? Or would you grant them the respect their training and expertise should entitle them? At least until they showed themselves to be not professionals? Would you stand in the basement and tell them that you KNOW that they are doing their job wrong? Some how I doubt it and it maybe that you would not do the equivalent to a teacher but many parents do.

Because I can tell you that I have had MANY parents start off stating they know far more about education in general and science than I do without any training or degrees.

And while I feel for the parents, students and teachers who are in your school system, please remember that the evaluations that control a teachers employment are typically done by their principal. It is not the teachers responsibility to challenge principals but should fall to the administrators higher up than the principal.

Given than the majority of states have made it so supervisors and administrators (like principals) can no longer get tenure I am at a loss to why this administrator is still working?
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:24 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,948,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Busy or not, as a parent, the buck stops with me. Teachers cannot individualize education to every student.
Ivory,

I think you read many of my posts in the past and you probably know I would never disagree with the above.
I sincerely believe that the idea that teachers should "individualize" education to every student because every child is "oh, so unique" - an idea very specific to American culture but downright non-existent in most other cultures - is a bunch of BS that is stressing the H out of teachers and makes their job a nightmare.

At the same time, parents too are more stressed out, busier, more pressed for time than they used to be - so they are hardly likely to to stay on top of children's academic progress. In fact, not many were doing so in the past either. It's just that children were more responsibilized and even intimidated by parents who used to put the fear of God in them along the lines of "if you fail the class, you'll be in major trouble".
Many kids who were not closely tutored or just naturally talented, were still getting their act together out of pure fear/intimidation - as most parents never micro-managed their children's schooling; they just expected then to step up. Or else. Only the very well-to-do did so via tutors. More recently, many parents from the hyper-competitive upper-middle classes, with some time on their hands, micro-manage the child's academics, but most still don't because they are overwhelmed with life problems and the rat race.

When it comes to parents, I DO resent their tendency to side with the child in pretty much everything, to find excuses for them, to medicalize their crap, to fail to expect their children to step up, and to ultimately fail to instill respect for teachers in their children.
But think about it: if they failed to instill respect for themselves, as parents, in their children, how could they instill the respect for teachers?

It's simply what it is.
Like I said, it's a structural issue that will not be solved by finger pointing in the direction of teachers OR in the direction of parents (other than perhaps what I just mentioned).

So, if I am to take sides somewhat, I would be more likely to blame the parents - but even then I would not exaggerate because many are simply too overwhelmed to tutor their kids regularly.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:37 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,948,952 times
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Originally Posted by AnnK78 View Post
Where is the accountability of the kids. Where is competition about getting the highest in the class, or beating your last score. Oh wait, most parents, most teachers and school boards don't recommend that anymore. No winners, just everyone the same. So why do we need to try if little Johnny is going to get a pass. Kids only do what is beneficial to them, they also try to get by with the least amount of work they have to do. I am tired as a parent seeing our kids not needing to excel in anything to get a pass. Too many kids are having troubles in the course, lets make it easier, lets lower the standards. I blame society as a whole, of course my kids are straight A students because they want to be the best. We want them to do great, and encourage them to be the best. My husband and I still want them to do better than your kid, we don't want them to be just the same as the kids down the street. I can't blame a teacher who has to follow guidelines set up by the district and state.

Having said that, I hope you mark your kids wrong answers in red because it is wrong and they need to learn that it is wrong, not purple or green because it will make them feel better. Just my two cents.
This, very much this.

I have argued on other threads why I think it is not only necessary but even healthy for my child to compare himself with others in his class, school, state and nation - and understand how he stacks up.
I have received a ton of critique for this view.

I simply don't believe in blind competition with oneself.
That's for the super-gifted who can't sleep at night because of an excruciating math problem they burn to solve. Most children are not wired this way. It is wishful thinking to believe that all children are intrinsically driven.
In fact, most children are...gasp...pure mediocrity who, at best, will understand good-ol' fashion competition (be better than x,y,z/kick some as*) or at worst, fear (if you fail the class, you'll be in major trouble).
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:40 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,948,952 times
Reputation: 3819
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Originally Posted by LABART View Post
The more that I read this thread and your posts the more I dislike your pompous attitude. I can understand why you have problems with your students and their parents. I certainly would not like someone who thinks they are better than me because they have a higher education.
More education = more knowledge, but not compassion, empathy, and kindness or common sense.
I'm sorry my GED is not good enough to earn me respect, and my years of hard work and sacrifice just does not make me a decent enough person to speak to the likes of you and yours.
I have personally known a teacher who got addicted to oxycotin, and spoiled her own child and verbally abused her husband. I guess she deserves more respect than me because she has a degree.
I have known a man who worked for NASA and was a rocket engineer who couldn't put together a play set.
I know a doctor who likes to drink too much vodka and smokes pot.
I know a judge who sits on the bench and passes judgement on everyone and then goes off to the bars and gets plastered and then drives himself home.
Here are just a few examples of "educated" people that I do not have respect for because of their actions not their degrees.
That was SO NOT a good post.
My answer to your rhetorical statements would be:

SO?????
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