U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-21-2011, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by wsop View Post
I have no problem 'letting' my child fail a test for choosing not to study or paying consequences for forgetting their books at home or vice versa at school.

However, I would never allow these things to become habitual enough where my child actually fails a subject for a marking period. I would absolutely step in well before that happened.

That is my job as a parent. I have lived a lifetime that my children have not, and therefore understand the long term consequences of some of their actions. I do not expect my 11 year old or even my high schooler to understand the life long consequences that may result.

That is why they are the children, and we are the adults. To actually expect a child, even one of high school age, to actually be able to grasp the long term consequences of not doing their best in school, is unrealistic.

And by the time they do learn that 'lesson', it is too late.
Sometimes it is your job to let them fail a subject. I failed two kids second semester where both parents have just given up. Too bad they didn't give up about 4 years ago. Both of these students could have already worked through this if they had.

It's interesting. In both cases the parents couldn't do enough to help the child pass first semester but they reached their limit second semester. In both cases, I, honestly, feel that the failure will have positive fallout for the student. Both of these kids need to learn that they won't always be able to skate by. Unfortunately, that is an expensive lesson when you're in the 11th grade.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-21-2011, 09:51 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,501,488 times
Reputation: 4494
Please don't generalize. I am a "people" and I most certainly think about these things no matter where my writing is published.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Please don't generalize. I am a "people" and I most certainly think about these things no matter where my writing is published.
As with any statistical set, there are always outliers . Then there are the rest of us....

Please note that your post four posts up just strings a bunch of thoughts together. I was trying to find a, properly written, paragraph there, but I can't. Seems you let go of paragraphs when you post on boards.

Like it or not, we let go of writing rules when we are engaged in casual conversation. THIS is a casual convesation even though it is typed. What would be unacceptable in a, formal, or graded written piece is fine here. Texting is a world unto itself. I do have to laugh when I get text jargon turned in in written papers. The student also gets a zero.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 10:10 AM
 
297 posts, read 328,002 times
Reputation: 135
I absolutely 100% agree. With that said, I have seen some bad teachers. But regardless, parents need to be more involved. That is if they care. If they don't care than fine, don't be involved but don't come around complaining either. How many kids these days have XBOX's and PS3's? Heck, how many of them have them in their rooms? Many parents just don't care.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 10:54 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,501,488 times
Reputation: 4494
How exactly does the presence of a gaming system prove that a parent doesn't care about education?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 02:40 PM
 
15,743 posts, read 13,167,427 times
Reputation: 19636
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Ivory, are you similarly forgiving of sloppy work from your chemistry students?

"Sorry, Ms. Ivory, I really do know the material, despite evidence to the contrary."

There is absolutely no excuse for a college student to confuse the use of the words you're, your, there, they're, & their.

None!

And it's absolutely disgraceful for a teacher -- a teacher! -- to defend their misuse.

I expect that all of my kids' teachers will require excellent written work, even those who teach science.
I am also a high school science teacher. At one of the best schools in one of the best districts in the country according to Newsweek. I do not pretend to have any expertise when it comes to grammar so I would never put myself or my students in a position where I would be the one to grade them on their grammar.

As a matter of fact when they write their research papers (and I do mean research papers and not a review paper) I grade them for their content and the quality of their scientific writing and then give them to the English teachers to grade them for grammar.

Why? Because even the best minds in science and research have editors who specialize in these things.

I would hope you want teachers who are experts in their field teaching your children at the high school level. That does not require one to have a perfect grasp of grammar.

Just so we are all on the same page it pains me to no end when I hear regular teachers and even lay people in this forum butcher statistics and the words "data" or "significant". That being said, I would not presume to tell an English teacher they had better be making sure children are correctly utilizing statistics in their persuasive essays or review papers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 02:49 PM
 
15,743 posts, read 13,167,427 times
Reputation: 19636
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

There is a reason for breaking up paragraphs on a forum. Phones, which many of us use to read the forums, decrease column width, which makes it difficult to read long paragraphs. You'll find a similar writing style in newspapers for the same reason.

I have yet to hear a good reason for sloppy grammar in the forums, especially given that it's frequented by teachers and should, I think, hold to a higher standard of writing.

So in the midst of this truly disappointing blame game of a thread, I wonder who we can give responsibility for the absolutely appalling writing habits of our youth?
You are blaming a high school chemistry teacher for the "appalling writing habits" of children who have not had a grammar course since elementary school?

I understand that grammar is the most important topic to you, but do you realize that it is not necessarily the most important topic to scientists? Should I expect everyone to have some sort of arbitrary minimum standard level of scientific knowledge in the "science forum" and if not belittle them? Because that is what you are doing here. I can also tell you as someone who posts in Science forums that many people who post there are not science experts and are still tolerated without the constant need to point out their flaws.

I would also think someone who is as obsessed with grammar would recognize the different audiences that writing is aimed at and would adjust their expectations accordingly. This is not a formal or professional setting, it is unreasonable to expect that level of grammar in a bulletin board forum.

I will be the first to admit, I change my writing to suit my audience as well as my method. When using my iphone to post, I am sure my mistakes go up due to the nature of the medium. Odd you can use that to excuse your mistakes but will not forgive Ivory hers. I also have been known to use text speak when texting. Just because I may ask my daughter "where r u?" does not mean I do not know or model the correct grammar in front of my students.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I am also a high school science teacher. At one of the best schools in one of the best districts in the country according to Newsweek. I do not pretend to have any expertise when it comes to grammar so I would never put myself or my students in a position where I would be the one to grade them on their grammar.

As a matter of fact when they write their research papers (and I do mean research papers and not a review paper) I grade them for their content and the quality of their scientific writing and then give them to the English teachers to grade them for grammar.

Why? Because even the best minds in science and research have editors who specialize in these things.

I would hope you want teachers who are experts in their field teaching your children at the high school level. That does not require one to have a perfect grasp of grammar.

Just so we are all on the same page it pains me to no end when I hear regular teachers and even lay people in this forum butcher statistics and the words "data" or "significant". That being said, I would not presume to tell an English teacher they had better be making sure children are correctly utilizing statistics in their persuasive essays or review papers.
I tend to not grade grammar for the same reasons. I grade for content but I do make note of, obvious, grammatical errors. I do, however, mark down if they use text jargon in a paper.

Sometimes, I wish I could hand off my student's work to an English teacher to grade. I just can't do it. It's not my area of expertise. Fortunately, I am able to write well in spite of my inability tell you what is wrong with your sentence. I can rewrite an incorrect sentence and make a correct one but I can't correct one you give me. I never have been able to do this, which is why I am not an English teacher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 05:57 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,501,488 times
Reputation: 4494
A teacher with a graduate degree of any stripe should have a mastery of elementary grammar and should be more than capable of correcting common errors. Using they're, their, and there interchangeably is not a stylistic choice -- it's simply wrong!

As science teachers, are you similarly-forgiving of computation errors when your students attempt to demonstrate their knowledge of, say, stoichiometry? Or do you assume that they have mastered the required math and can perform the operations quickly and accurately?

I am horrified that any teacher would excuse sloppy writing regardless of medium. It's obvious that neither of you value excellence in writing in the same way I do, but I do expect that you know the basic conventions and will hold students accountable for using them, no matter what subject you teach.

As an aside, my mother teaches nursing at a midwestern university, and she routinely encounters terrible writing from both students and her peers in academia. Based on what I've read in this thread, I think I now understand why that's the case. It appears it's some other teacher's job to help young people become competent writers.

BTW, I've not noticed that either of you are poor writers, so there's no reason to get defensive. I should think both of you are capable of catching the types of errors that VAcollegestudent made in her post and holding your own students accountable for doing better. Their professors will thank you!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
A teacher with a graduate degree of any stripe should have a mastery of elementary grammar and should be more than capable of correcting common errors. Using they're, their, and there interchangeably is not a stylistic choice -- it's simply wrong!

As science teachers, are you similarly-forgiving of computation errors when your students attempt to demonstrate their knowledge of, say, stoichiometry? Or do you assume that they have mastered the required math and can perform the operations quickly and accurately?

I am horrified that any teacher would excuse sloppy writing regardless of medium. It's obvious that neither of you value excellence in writing in the same way I do, but I do expect that you know the basic conventions and will hold students accountable for using them, no matter what subject you teach.

As an aside, my mother teaches nursing at a midwestern university, and she routinely encounters terrible writing from both students and her peers in academia. Based on what I've read in this thread, I think I now understand why that's the case. It appears it's some other teacher's job to help young people become competent writers.

BTW, I've not noticed that either of you are poor writers, so there's no reason to get defensive. I should think both of you are capable of catching the types of errors that VAcollegestudent made in her post and holding your own students accountable for doing better. Their professors will thank you!
I grade the content area I teach which is my area of experise. I am not an expert in English. As I said, I note, obvious grammatical errors and word misuse but I do not grade the writing execpt for clarity WRT the topic at hand. I'm, simply, not qualified. It's not my forte. Stoichiometry is. Do you grade for correct accuracy and procision in measurements when you grade papers? Would you even recognize a measurement written the the wrong degree of accuracy? ... Do you even realize that I'd expect a student to write 100.00 when using a balance and that I would mark the number 100 as wrong?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top