U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-17-2011, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Rural
45 posts, read 92,663 times
Reputation: 57

Advertisements

Okay Okay I know I know not a popular topic or "PC" however I'm wondering how other schools are dealing with this...

If the SPEC ED kids are in your class...(as they are mine) they also take "THE TEST" and at least in Idaho ( yes they have more time and assistance like reading the test to them) however they scores are lumped into my final class score.

Not PC but the scores are not reflective of my teaching.

Are you having this issue?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-17-2011, 11:49 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,144,222 times
Reputation: 12779
I don't have an answer for you... but as someone who supports MERIT PAY, I sure do hope that students with disabilities do not reflect negatively on your (or anyone's) teaching. I hope they have a solution for this scenario.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2011, 11:52 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,144,222 times
Reputation: 12779
I think you need to see how it pans out before worrying about it. It's a new implementation and certainly is going to have kinks. I'm sure Ford's production line wasn't perfect on day one either. See how it progresses over 5-10 years. It's normal to be concerned with the new.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
20 posts, read 33,497 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I think you need to see how it pans out before worrying about it. It's a new implementation and certainly is going to have kinks. I'm sure Ford's production line wasn't perfect on day one either. See how it progresses over 5-10 years. It's normal to be concerned with the new.
NJBest: Although I am heartened that you think me/us to be normal, I have no intention of waiting 5-10 years for others to fumble around with this issue. I think I should jump into the fray and lend a hand.

In reality, the local district will set up a committee to determine the measures of merit to be used to evaluate teacher performance and distribute merit pay. A bit too much for a short blog. That being the case, I am hopeful that it will be done in a way that is reasonably objective. Ultimately, the system must function to reward good teaching sufficiently to attract more good teachers, under all circumstances. The one thing that is certain, is that the standardized test results cannot be the only measure. In Idaho, most teacher-product is not measured on the Isats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 01:05 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,144,222 times
Reputation: 12779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty3d View Post
NJBest: Although I am heartened that you think me/us to be normal, I have no intention of waiting 5-10 years for others to fumble around with this issue. I think I should jump into the fray and lend a hand.

In reality, the local district will set up a committee to determine the measures of merit to be used to evaluate teacher performance and distribute merit pay. A bit too much for a short blog. That being the case, I am hopeful that it will be done in a way that is reasonably objective. Ultimately, the system must function to reward good teaching sufficiently to attract more good teachers, under all circumstances. The one thing that is certain, is that the standardized test results cannot be the only measure. In Idaho, most teacher-product is not measured on the Isats.
Lend a hand, provide feedback... but give it time. Don't expect it to be perfect immediately. Five to ten years is reasonable to get it to the "close to perfect" point. I mean, it's going to be a long journey to success. But it will get there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I don't have an answer for you... but as someone who supports MERIT PAY, I sure do hope that students with disabilities do not reflect negatively on your (or anyone's) teaching. I hope they have a solution for this scenario.
Under NCLB, we are judged on how ALL children do. NONE can be left behind. Not even the ones with special needs.

In my school, all scores are lumped together. We don't have merit pay, yet , but it will be an issue when we do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 03:59 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,144,222 times
Reputation: 12779
Well in that case it seems flawed, unless I'm missing something. Hopefully it will be resolved in the first 5 to 10 years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 04:07 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Well in that case it seems flawed, unless I'm missing something. Hopefully it will be resolved in the first 5 to 10 years.
Even if you take out special needs children (as a supporter of merit pay) do you really think the test scores of my students reflect my teaching ability?

I am a hard teacher. I pride myself in having high standards for my students. I am not liked. How hard do you think my students would try in a test that they have no vested interest in in order to make me look good?

Judge me on what I teach and how I teach it, compared to other teachers who teach the same thing thank you. Unfortunately, using student scores as the determining factor, a liked teacher who teaches little can end up with students who score higher than a disliked teacher who teaches a lot. The tests will become a popularity contest....and I will leave teaching because hard teachers don't win popularity contests and I refuse to become an easy teacher just so I can.

As a supporter of merit pay (I'd support it to if there were actually a way to judge teachers fairly) how do you think my performance should be judged?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 04:12 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,144,222 times
Reputation: 12779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Even if you take out special needs children (as a supporter of merit pay) do you really think the test scores of my students reflect my teaching ability?

I am a hard teacher. I pride myself in having high standards for my students. I am not liked. How hard do you think my students would try in a test that they have no vested interest in in order to make me look good?

Judge me on what I teach and how I teach it, compared to other teachers who teach the same thing thank you. Unfortunately, using student scores as the determining factor, a liked teacher who teaches little can end up with students who score higher than a disliked teacher who teaches a lot. The tests will become a popularity contest....and I will leave teaching because hard teachers don't win popularity contests and I refuse to become an easy teacher just so I can.

As a supporter of merit pay (I'd support it to if there were actually a way to judge teachers fairly) how do you think my performance should be judged?
I'm not supporting their method of measurement. I think if you give it 5 to 10 years to mature, the system will work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2011, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I'm not supporting their method of measurement. I think if you give it 5 to 10 years to mature, the system will work.
You're kidding, right? This is education and the goverment we're talking about. No, what will happen is anyone who is capable of getting a decent job outside of teaching will because they can and you'll be left, even moreso than now, with both ends of the spectrum (those who stay because education is in their blood and those who can't find anything else) but they'll have to keep them all because they'll need warm bodies in the classroom because education will become an undesirable major for anyone capable of anything else.

And you didn't answer the question. How would YOU base merit pay? You said you support it. Fast forward 5-10 years, what will the judgement process look like?

Edited to add: merit pay is based on a business model that will not work in teaching because you cannot measure effectiveness the way you can in business. Students are not product that can be quantified, nor is education a process that can be quantified. When I was an engineer, all glove boxes I needed to test required the same test. Whereas, each student I teach responds to different teaching methods or perhaps to none at all depending on the student. As an engineer, I speced out minimum material requirements so my incoming materials were consistent. Incoming materials are inconsistent in teaching....so it should come as no surprised that I'd get different results in different years even if I taught the same way each year.

Under merit pay, a lousy teacher who happened to get a great class this year gets merit pay while a great teacher who got a struggling class but made more difference won't. Results are dependent on incoming materials. You would need longitudinal data to decide who is a better teacher. You would need a large sample set. In a large district, you might be able to rank teachers in about year 20 but, again, if you use student test scores, there is a popularity element. Students are willing to work harder on tests that are used only for ranking schools and teachers for teachers they like than they are for teachers they dislike even though teh disliked teacher may be the better teacher.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-18-2011 at 04:26 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top