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Unread 06-18-2011, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,334 posts, read 13,923,304 times
Reputation: 9907
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonsdaughter View Post
Bingo. Just because my mom had the time to teach me things has nothing to do with the fact that I learned them before I started school. No cause and effect here. Gotcha.
I'm afraid you missed the point. Working moms have time to teach their children things too.

I'll have dig it out but a massive time study was done comparing working moms and stay at home moms that found that the difference in the actual amount of time spent on children is around 22 minutes per day averaged over 18 years, which, IMO is a dumb way to do the calculation so I used the data to calculate that it's less than 50 minutes per day in the first 5 years. 1) that little amount of time isn't going to make a difference and 2) even if it did, I think a good day care provider could compensate.

While it is true that the children of stay at home moms score better on school readiness tests at age 3, it's the children of working moms who score higher upon entry into school. There are small differences through elementary school but they have come out in the wash by the end of elementary school so there is no longlasting benefit to having either a stay at home or a working mom save two. The daughters of working moms have higher self esteem resulting in higher educational goals and attainment and higher career goals and achievement while the sons of stay at home moms see women as less capable than men. That's it. The only long lasting effects are positives for the working mom.

For starters, moms today have a lot less work than your mom had on the farm so a lot of time has been freed up for other things that was never needed for children in the first place. This is supported by research that shows that today's full time working mom spends more time with her kids than a 1970's stay at home mom who spent more time with her kids than a 1950's stay at home mom, so, in spite of working, we've increased the time we spend with our children.

Time studies comparing working moms to stay at home moms find that working moms spend less time sleeping, on personal activities (socializing, hobbies, etc, etc, etc,...) and on housework in order to make more time for their kids. The question is whether or not that time is actually needed. I vote no because women like your mom and my grandmother didn't have that time and their children turned out just fine.

There are 168 hours in a week. Assuming we sleep 7 hours a night, there are 119 waking hours per week. Take off 45 for working and 10 for commuting and getting ready for work and you have 64 hours left per week. Full time school is only 30 hours per week so if I wanted to spend as much time teaching my kids as they spend in school I could. I, personally, don't because I think kids should be kids when they are little but that would be my choice whether I worked or not. My SIL was a stay at home mom who taught her kids nothing before school started. They did learn from Sesame Street but she didn't teach them. Her kids will be the first two PhD's in the family yet they couldn't even say the alphabet when they entered school....go figure.

What you don't realize is you're picking out something that is irrelevent in the big scheme of things. When a child reads has nothing to do with educational or life success. THAT they learn to read does but it doesn't matter if they learn at 3 or learn in school at 6.

However, I digress, the point is that there is no shortage of time for working moms to teach their child to read before school starts if they wish to. According to my grandmother, about 60 hours a week have been freed up for the average mom due to modern conveniences. If I take 55 hours to work, commute and get ready for work, I have 5 more hours than she did BEFORE you consider that working moms short themselves on things like sleep and leisure activities to make more time for their families.

Whether mom works or not is irrelevent. It's what she does with the time she has that matters and then it may not matter as is the case with early reading. My dd did not learn to read until she was 6 but she was reading on a 9th grade level in 3rd grade. Learning late doesn't seem to have slowed her down one bit.

FTR when my dd was evaluated for gifteness, they told us when a child learns to read is developmental and means nothing. It's how fast they progress once they learn and that has little to do with how much time someone works with them and a lot to do with the child.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Eastern Kentucky
1,238 posts, read 1,506,078 times
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No, I don't think I missed the point. I just disagree with it. You are citing studies, I am citing personal experience. I was both a working mom and a stay at home mom, and know the difference in the amount of time I spent with my children in both cases. I also know the amount of time I spent with my mom and know that before I started school and on summer vacations I spent at least eight to ten hours per day with her that I would not have had if she worked. Do I think this applies to all families? No, I am openminded enough to realize that it doesn't, but I am also openminded enough to realize that studies and polls cannot address all of the variables. Question, has the studies taken in to account forced overtime in the workplace or the moms who work 2nd or 3rd shift?
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Unread 06-18-2011, 10:25 AM
 
9,847 posts, read 14,578,526 times
Reputation: 4385
Preparing kids for entry into kindergarten: Parents and pre-school teachers
Nurturing a respect for those in authority: Parents, teachers, and other adults
Instilling a love of learning: parents, teachers
Making sure kids are well rested for school: parents
Making sure kids are fed breakfast:parents, students
Making sure kids are fed lunch: parents, students
Kids doing their homework:parents, students
Additional support a particular child may need to learn the material:teachers
Remediating children who are falling behind:teachers
Making sure children are taught what they are supposed to be taught:Parents
Making sure children learn what they are supposed to learn:Parents
Making sure children receive special services they may need:teachersParents
Making sure children pass the high stakes tests:teachers studentsParents

Ivory, I understand why you cite studies and statistics regarding the working Mom's but children do have two parents. Any statistics on how Dad's are doing on the teaching front?

My experience with my kids has been similar to masonsdaughter. As a work at home Mom, I spent quite a bit of time with my children. Since I hate housework, finding time to do that was/is not a huge priority. When my kids were little, I would much rather have spent time snuggling and reading then doing laundry and cleaning the floors...
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Last edited by toobusytoday; 06-18-2011 at 12:54 PM..
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Unread 06-18-2011, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,334 posts, read 13,923,304 times
Reputation: 9907
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonsdaughter View Post
No, I don't think I missed the point. I just disagree with it. You are citing studies, I am citing personal experience. I was both a working mom and a stay at home mom, and know the difference in the amount of time I spent with my children in both cases. I also know the amount of time I spent with my mom and know that before I started school and on summer vacations I spent at least eight to ten hours per day with her that I would not have had if she worked. Do I think this applies to all families? No, I am openminded enough to realize that it doesn't, but I am also openminded enough to realize that studies and polls cannot address all of the variables. Question, has the studies taken in to account forced overtime in the workplace or the moms who work 2nd or 3rd shift?
Why do you think working moms can't teach their children to read?

The difference in time spent with children when working/not working isn't what you'd think it is. Of the, say, 45 hours per week that a parent is working, how many of them would have actually been spent on the children and not on...say, chatting on boards, talking to friends, cleaning house, working hobbies, children napping, children playing with friends, etc, etc, etc...? In the past, many of those hours would have been spent working around the house because mothers didn't have our modern conveniences. Now consider that children never have needed us hovering over them 24 x 7 and that's a good thing because the race would not have survived. It is not a 1:1 hour loss for time worked and there are some gains.

As a working mom, I loved the end of day ride home when my kids and I would reconnect. Dh gained some 1:1 time with the kids without me around (one of the positives of having a working mom is paternal involvement increases and paternal involvement is associated with a host of positive outcomes).

The truth of the matter is much of the time traded off in working wasn't used for children anyway. That's why the time studies find such small differences between time spent with children between working moms and stay at home moms. The biggest differences are actually found not in time spent with children but time spent on housework, hobbies, socializing and sleep. There's a bigger difference in the amount of sleep working moms get compared to stay at home moms than there is time with children! Your, incorrect, assumption is all of the time is taken away from children.

I've been a stay at home step-mom, a full time working mom and a part time working mom. I can attest that what really changes as I move from one status to the other is the amount of free time I have for me, how clean my house is and how much sleep I get. I will admit to being most relaxed as a part time working mom (best of both worlds) but that's not what this thread is about. It's about what my children got/didn't get depending on my working status. I do believe the time studies because I've lived them.

For starters, please keep in mind that a full time working mom who works 5 days per week and has just two weeks vaction and the usual holdidays off is not working over 1/3 of her days. Studies show that working moms spend their days off and evenings in a more child intensive ways than do stay at home moms so working moms gaining time on days off and in the evenings (the question is whether or not they need to do this. My vote would be no. I think the real issue today is too much time lavished on children. They are spoiled and used to being catered to but that's another debtate.) Second, not all of the time gained by stay at home moms is actually spent on the children. Some of it is used doing more housework, on leisure activities and sleeping. In fact, more is used by any of these than is actually used on children. That being the case, the real question becomes is it ok for a day care provider to make up the shortfall if there even is a shortfall (remember that today's full time working mom actually spends more time with her children than a 1970's or 1950's stay at home mom.)?

Personally, I think this has nothing to do with the amount of time we have and everything to do with how we choose to spend the time we have. As a full time working mom, not counting vacations or holidays, I have about 65 waking hours home per week (well back when I wasn't teaching I did. Now I'm on this rediculous 60 hour work week during the year followed by the summer off schedule that I hate) at home. I would like you to tell me why I need more than this to connect with my kids and teach my kids? Why is 65 waking hours home not enough to clean the house and teach my kids? And why can't a day care provider do some of the teaching? Does it make a difference if 3 of the 5 books read to my children per day are read by their dcp and the other two by me?

I challenge you to do something that will prove that maternal working status does not matter. Go to a high school and separate the students by whether or not they had a stay at home mom. Feel free to use any criteria you want (except inquiring as to who had a stay at home mom), be it grade point average, moral values, attendance,....whatever. See how well you can do. I'm willing to bet you won't be able to decide who had a stay at home mom and who didn't because research supports that, in the end, it really doesn't matter which you had. Things like maternal education at time of birth and SES trump moms working status by a mile. At the end of the day, what do you think will be different about the children who had stay at home moms and the children who didn't? THAT is what really matters.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-18-2011 at 12:44 PM..
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Unread 06-18-2011, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,334 posts, read 13,923,304 times
Reputation: 9907
Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
Preparing kids for entry into kindergarten: Parents and pre-school teachers
Nurturing a respect for those in authority: Parents, teachers, and other adults
Instilling a love of learning: parents, teachers
Making sure kids are well rested for school: parents
Making sure kids are fed breakfast:parents, students
Making sure kids are fed lunch: parents, students
Kids doing their homework:parents, students
Additional support a particular child may need to learn the material:teachers
Remediating children who are falling behind:teachers
Making sure children are taught what they are supposed to be taught:Parents
Making sure children learn what they are supposed to learn:Parents
Making sure children receive special services they may need:teachersParents
Making sure children pass the high stakes tests:teachers studentsParents

Ivory, I understand why you cite studies and statistics regarding the working Mom's but children do have two parents. Any statistics on how Dad's are doing on the teaching front?

My experience with my kids has been similar to masonsdaughter. As a work at home Mom, I spent quite a bit of time with my children. Since I hate housework, finding time to do that was/is not a huge priority. When my kids were little, I would much rather have spent time snuggling and reading then doing laundry and cleaning the floors...
There is a lot more research on moms because of the mommy wars but the research there is on dads actually points to them having a greater impact than moms. Increased paternal involvement (after work, of course, which is ok for dads but not moms for some strange reason ) is associated with educational success and reduced rates of teen pregnancy and drug use. It turns out that one of the biggest things mom can do to get dad more involved is go to work herself. Paternal involvement increases when moms work.

I'm really surprised that organizations like FRED (divorce lawyers for men) have not grabbed this and run with it to help fathers gain custody in divorces. Looking at the research, it would make more sense to have a daughter in the custody of her father with the mother being the visiting parent. Dads have a lot of impact on their daughters.

Here's a short list of things that matter more than mom working or not working (not in any order) (they each deliver measurable outcomes, whereas, mom's working status does not.):

Paternal involvement

SES

Living in a two parent household

Eating dinner together as a family (yes this has more impact than whether or not mom works for a living)

Attending church

Maternal education at the time of birth

Doing chores with children


I really don't get why people get hung up on maternal working status because it really doesn't matter at the end of the day. So, after the family goes to church on Sunday, have your kids help you prepare the meal, sit down to the meal as a family and then have dad spend some quality time with his kids. Now if I could only get my husband to go to church with us...sigh.

And I agree with you on housework. I can think of 10,000 things better to do than housework but we do get more of it when we stay home, in large part, because fathers, rightfully so, think they shouldn't have to come home and do it after they've worked all day. So, instead of the 2/3-1/3 split (men still don't pull their weight here when mom works) we get when we work, we get to do pretty much all of the housework. The end result is you end up spending more time on housework but less actually gets done.

Back in my engineering days, I had a housekeeper. Let me tell you that was NICE. I miss my housekeeper. Yesterday was the last day of school and my house is trashed. I haven't lifted a finger in a month. The kids and I will be doing some serious cleaning over the next few weeks.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Weston, FL
463 posts, read 676,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryhoyarbie View Post
Yeah, but in order for the child to be responsible, the parents have to place that thinking in the child's mind and stay on top of them.
The truth is that the parent has 5yrs with a child before they step foot in a classroom. The foundation for values, rules, expectations, consequences, have already been established before they are putin "teachers hands." PARENTS are a kids' first role models. Kids will encounter dozens of teachers in their lifetime in a nine month rotation. Parents are a constant. You can lead a horse to water but you sure as heck can't make it drink. very true. As a parent I will make sure that path to water is good and clear for the kid to get a goood drink every time
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Unread 06-18-2011, 03:03 PM
 
9,847 posts, read 14,578,526 times
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Quote:
I really don't get why people get hung up on maternal working status because it really doesn't matter at the end of the day.
I absolutely agree. Let's stop bringing it up.

Bottom line, for me, is that all stakeholders - parents, children, teachers, administrators- are responsible for educating our children.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 06:29 PM
 
8,241 posts, read 9,479,112 times
Reputation: 3527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I wish there were a way to do matching polls but we can't so I'll ask the questions in a thread. Please answer who you think is responsible for the following WRT education of children: Teachers, the school, parents, the government or the child.

Preparing kids for entry into kindergarten:PARENTS
Nurturing a respect for those in authority:PARENTS
Instilling a love of learning:PARENTS
Making sure kids are well rested for school:PARENTS
Making sure kids are fed breakfast:PARENTS
Making sure kids are fed lunch:PARENTS
Kids doing their homework:PARENTS
Additional support a particular child may need to learn the material:PARENTS
Remediating children who are falling behind:PARENTS
Making sure children are taught what they are supposed to be taught:TEACHERS
Making sure children learn what they are supposed to learn:PARENTS AND TEACHERS
Making sure children receive special services they may need:PARENTS
Making sure children pass the high stakes tests: PARENTS AND TEACHERS
hmmm....now that you put it that way.....sounds like parents are really repsonsible for at least 80%.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,334 posts, read 13,923,304 times
Reputation: 9907
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
hmmm....now that you put it that way.....sounds like parents are really repsonsible for at least 80%.
That was the point of asking the question. When you look at things line item by line item, it's clear that the ball spends most of the time in the parents court.

As a parent, I have way more impact on my children's educational outcome than any one teacher. In fact, I have more impact than all of their teachers put together. As a parent, I hope it's enough. I have one who digs in her heels who is giving us a run for our money but we are the ones who can have the most impact. Hopefully, it will be enough.
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Unread 06-18-2011, 06:47 PM
Status: "Nations rise and Nations fall...Rip USA." (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: spoKOMPTON
7,221 posts, read 4,151,920 times
Reputation: 3603
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorytickler View Post
i wish there were a way to do matching polls but we can't so i'll ask the questions in a thread. Please answer who you think is responsible for the following wrt education of children: Teachers, the school, parents, the government or the child.

Preparing kids for entry into kindergarten:
headstart
nurturing a respect for those in authority:
government diversity programs
instilling a love of learning:
headstart
making sure kids are well rested for school:
social services
making sure kids are fed breakfast:
school feeding program
making sure kids are fed lunch:
school feeding program
kids doing their homework:
social services
additional support a particular child may need to learn the material:
school provided tutor
remediating children who are falling behind:
school provided tutor
making sure children are taught what they are supposed to be taught:
teacher/school provided tutor
making sure children learn what they are supposed to learn:
teacher/school provided tutor
making sure children receive special services they may need:
social services
making sure children pass the high stakes tests:
teacher/school provided tutor
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