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Old 06-16-2011, 06:43 PM
 
1,248 posts, read 1,835,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
I imagine that you are among the same group of people who also routinely squawk about how majoring in history is a waste of time.
And then mock history majors and gleefully say they'll never get a job with a living wage or any at all. Oh but this story rattles them up just the same....hmmm.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:27 AM
 
608 posts, read 1,149,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
Part of me thinks that it's not really an "accident" that they don't teach history. What are the consequences of 12% of highschool seniors knowing history? That means 88% of kids don't know history. Hmmm..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/ed...15history.html

-Politicans that can manipulate you. After all, you have nothing to judge them against! You don't even know who the old politicans are, let alone what they stood for, or the mistakes they made. Part of not knowing history is covering up past mistakes.

-It benefits banks, ceo's, global rich...i.e., people don't understand bailing you out.

-You don't understand other countries....and as such, you don't understand the decline of America. You just believe that China is "over there". If you don't have a sweeping overview of history, you won't understand how wealth gets transfered over generations. Hmmmmmm.

-It also makes you poor, in terms of judgement. I.e., look at the mortgage mess. If you don't understand the history of mortgages, or basic finance..maybe it makes it easier to sign a no income, no doc super A++ mortgage. LOL. The kind that were coming out in droves from 2001-2006.

-It divides the country. Gives more ammunition to the glenn becks of the world. Instead of uniting people (possibly making them powerful), you fracture people. Gives more ammunition to the sarah palins of the world (I can see russia from my house).

A good history teacher I've had online (and through amazon) is jim rogers, a financial commentator, world traveler, he tells it like it is, no bs. He went around the world a few times in a car and motorcycle. I found history boring in school, because it was names and dates. You've got to draw history to the present. Things repeat. People make the same mistakes.

*In government school. You would "study" the punic wars. 70% of the emphasis would be on names and dates. most kids eyes would glaze over.

*In a "real school", you'd study whats the point of a war? Who benefits? Have people always benefited from wars? And you'd see common threads between the punic war, and the gulf war or afghanistan. And it'd make you think. School has failed you if you don't understand that whats happening now has happened before.

Not knowing history means you don't know the past, and now you're much easier to manipulate. They should give a certificate to the 88% of highschoolers who don't know history....now you're easy to manipulate. Be careful.
This is EXACTLY right on point. Why do you think the benchmarks established by NCLB are in just reading and math? Do you know of any state that would deny a child from being promoted because they couldn't pass a standardized history test? Yet lots of states refuse to promote children to high school if they don't pass math and reading. Heck, even a state like Georgia says that you are high school educated if you take one semester (9weeks) of US History, when I was in school US History was a two year course. And don't forget that US History basically stops at the Vietnam War.

Its all about manipulation and control.
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,042,817 times
Reputation: 2725
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrgy View Post
This is EXACTLY right on point. Why do you think the benchmarks established by NCLB are in just reading and math? Do you know of any state that would deny a child from being promoted because they couldn't pass a standardized history test? Yet lots of states refuse to promote children to high school if they don't pass math and reading. Heck, even a state like Georgia says that you are high school educated if you take one semester (9weeks) of US History, when I was in school US History was a two year course. And don't forget that US History basically stops at the Vietnam War.

Its all about manipulation and control.
It's all about control.

-If you don't know about the constitution, how are you going to protest an intrustive TSA search at the airport?

-All the buzzwords of the 2000's, TARP, QE2 (quantitative easing, i.e. money printing). You have nothing to judge these "programs" against....thus, they must be ok.

-Middle east history!!! Curiously absent from US history books. You'd think since we're constantly involved in the middle east, kids should be well educated about that part of the world. Shouldn't that be one of the main focuses of US history classes?

The areas of the world that we spend the most money in, kids know the least about. I don't think thats much of a coincidence. If students were taught the real history of the middle east, they would know that installing "democracy" wouldn't be very easy. Very interesting how that's left out of US history books.

-The real history of China would probably scare the socks off US educators. China has had periods where they've done very well. Very entrepreneurial, innovative. The real history of other countries may show how weak US students are. I'm competing against hard working, disciplined people...willing to forgo short term gains?

-Real history would be very tenuous for our consumer driven, credit economy. Kids would learn, it's not always been that way? They wouldn't buy as much because they'd know the economy isn't as stable as it appears.

History classes in school look at things in a very black and white way. This person was "good". Hitler was "bad". Stalin was "bad", etc.

But in real history, things get changed and transfered, nothing is static. Sure, Nazi propaganda was "bad", but there's propaganda now. It's taken a different form. Maybe some propaganda now is worst, it's more stealth. If fewer people can see it, is it worst? Maybe people now are less educated.

But they don't want to look at it too deep or connect the dots. It's easier to quiz you on the Nazi's. This day in 1942, this guy died. This day in 1944, this happened.

*Not a quiz on propaganda in the 20th century, and the nazi's were one part of that..and the US is also at the end of the list*. Maybe the US spread more propaganda around the world in the 20th century than the Germans ever did.

-I think US history classes try to paint people in the old days as stupid, ill informed, "different", etc. I.e., the days of bank runs, bank panics. They didn't know any better. They didn't understand the economy. We're different. We're sophisticated.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:18 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 10,738,226 times
Reputation: 3092
I was in the mall yesterday wandering around while my wife shopped and a teenage girl came up to me and said "Mr. Smith! Mr. Smith!"

When she got closer to me she realized that I was not Mr. Smith. "Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were my U.S. History teacher."

She went on. "He's really mean. He failed me."

I asked if that meant she had to take it over again.

"No they only make you go to summer school if you fail two classes."

Those who fail history are NOT destined to repeat it!
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,717,038 times
Reputation: 2606
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
BS. The scores in math and science suck as well. When will the educational system begin to take responsibility for their own failure?
Itís the governments fault, Itís the scoring systems fault, Itís the parents fault, Itís the kids fault, it is everybody in the fricken worldís fault except the people who are being paid to do the damn job.
If they put half the effort into teaching as they do in shirking their responsibilities we would not be having this discussion.
The system is a failure and needs to be replaced with a voucher system.

Every complex probelm has a simple, easy-to-understand "solution" that would never work.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:43 AM
 
7,335 posts, read 8,994,909 times
Reputation: 8388
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrgy View Post
This is EXACTLY right on point. Why do you think the benchmarks established by NCLB are in just reading and math? Do you know of any state that would deny a child from being promoted because they couldn't pass a standardized history test? Yet lots of states refuse to promote children to high school if they don't pass math and reading. Heck, even a state like Georgia says that you are high school educated if you take one semester (9weeks) of US History, when I was in school US History was a two year course. And don't forget that US History basically stops at the Vietnam War.

Its all about manipulation and control.
I'm not that old, but for some of us, US History stopped after the end of WW2...seriously..
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:39 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,123,932 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
Every complex probelm has a simple, easy-to-understand "solution" that would never work.
Yes you are right, competition never improves anything.....
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,021 posts, read 98,892,281 times
Reputation: 31456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Yes you are right, competition never improves anything.....
Education is not like selling pizza.
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Denver via Austin
2,964 posts, read 6,222,533 times
Reputation: 3102
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
BS. The scores in math and science suck as well. When will the educational system begin to take responsibility for their own failure?
Itís the governments fault, Itís the scoring systems fault, Itís the parents fault, Itís the kids fault, it is everybody in the fricken worldís fault except the people who are being paid to do the damn job.
If they put half the effort into teaching as they do in shirking their responsibilities we would not be having this discussion.
The system is a failure and needs to be replaced with a voucher system.
Wow...You actually believe teachers are solely to blame? I just graduated high school, and I've had the pleasure of only running into a handful of "bad" teachers. I wish I could say the same about my peers. It's been my observation that the vast majority of problems in the education system stem form the bad attitude of the students and their parents, not the teachers not doing their job. Also, I'd like show me one voucher system that actually improved the schools in which it was implemented.

The simple truth is that most kids hate history, even the highly motivated ones, and no amount of education reform/placing the blame on teachers is going to fix that.
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,123,932 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westerner92 View Post
Wow...You actually believe teachers are solely to blame? I just graduated high school, and I've had the pleasure of only running into a handful of "bad" teachers. I wish I could say the same about my peers. It's been my observation that the vast majority of problems in the education system stem form the bad attitude of the students and their parents, not the teachers not doing their job. Also, I'd like show me one voucher system that actually improved the schools in which it was implemented.

The simple truth is that most kids hate history, even the highly motivated ones, and no amount of education reform/placing the blame on teachers is going to fix that.
I did not say teachers are solely to blame, I also included the administrators that establish the curriculum. The fact is it is the teacher’s job to teach.
They have 6 hrs a day for 12 years to bring these kids up to a minimum level of education, and they for the most part fail.
Teachers 30 years ago were able to do it. Teachers in most of the world are able to do it; even if they do not have books or materials to do it with. In this country, all we get are excuses and poor results.
Being as you are a fresh high school graduate, and still do not know your ass from a hole in the ground, I do not expect you to know this, but in the real world when you are given a job to do you either do it, or you are replaced by someone can.
I would also not expect you to know that in a Representative Republic, which we are, despite the fact you have been taught we are a democracy, that our ability to govern ourselves depends on an educated population.
We have lost most of our rights and freedoms, and are in the process of loosing the rest, because our population does not understand either our history or our system of government.
We are becoming a Plutocracy controlled by corporate interests, and the educational system has been a major collaborator in that process.
The dumbing down of America has been going on now for about 4 decades and it has resulted in the economic devastation that we are now living through.
It is ironic that it is now coming back to bite the same educational system that created it, by way of massive budget cuts and lay offs. That is what you call Poetic Justice.

Last edited by jimhcom; 06-18-2011 at 11:33 AM..
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