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Old 07-24-2011, 10:42 PM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,102,944 times
Reputation: 1470

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
According to the article, US teachers spend 1097 hours a year teaching (1913 hours total, including outside of the classroom). The OECD average is only 786 hours in comparison. However, our student achievement is average in reading and science and below average in math.

Any thoughts on these statistics? The article states that teachers who work fewer hours in other countries produce "better educated students". It also brings up the difference in salary, ie. American teachers spend the most hours teaching but they are the 5th lowest paid. So does this mean that our teachers are overworked and underpaid-which does not help student achievement?

U.S. Teachers Work the Longest Hours But Students Stay Average - Yahoo! News

Thanks for reading
Is this article based on other countries testing all, including their special needs students as well. Remember that in the USA all of our students, including the ones who just arrived to the USA, legal or illegal, are tested and averaged into the data. Not far to compare all of the USA students to other countries' very best and brightest.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:13 AM
 
Location: USA
67 posts, read 92,472 times
Reputation: 52
Seeing as I was educated in Canada, and now teaching in the USA for four years, I feel I can make a few valid points here.

1) American students think their sole purpose at school is to text each other all day long
2) American Math and History curriculum is garbage
3) Americans, in general, do not care about educating themselves
4) Many American parents have an aversion to cooperating with teachers
5) Americans view teachers as the enemy (see the news for plenty of examples)
6) American teachers are poorly paid (see example)
7) American students are quite disrespectful to their peers and teachers
8) American teachers get 30 minutes for lunch? WTF?

Example of poor teacher pay:

In my state, New Mexico, beginning teachers get paid the following:

1) Bachelor's degree - $30,000
2) Master's degree - $30,002
3) Ph.D. - $30,006

This pay scale has been the SAME for the last SEVEN years. See the problem here? If you don't you really need to get some help.

When I went to high school we started at 9:00 a.m., broke for lunch at 12:00 p.m. until 1:00 p.m. (yes, a FULL HOUR!), finished at 3:30 p.m. Actual instruction time: 5.5 hours. Here in America, I start teaching at 7:30 a.m. (what an un-Godly hour!), have a 30-minute lunch at some point depending upon the size of the high school, and finish teaching at 2:30 p.m. Actual instruction time: 6.5 hours. Yet, Canadian students consistently outscore American students. Why is that?

The notion that more time in school (i.e. making the school day longer) will improve scores is poppycock. More time in school is not going to help with the fundamental issues that affect American public schooling: poor parental involvement, poor parenting skills (abuse/neglect), poverty, lack of discipline, garbage curriculum in many courses, etc. I could go on all day long...

Until American parents start VALUING educating themselves, never mind their kids, nothing will ever change. Sad fact, but reality.

I am a licensed substitute teacher with my degree from Canada - have been one for the last four years. After graduating from university next summer I am going to be a full teacher - high school Social Science (History, Geography, Economics, Civics, Government). Initially when I started my degree program I was going to become a Math teacher, but after one year of substitute teaching I changed my degree program to become a Social Science teacher. One reason: my love of United States history from when I took an optional American History class in Grade 10 back in Canada. Come to think of it why don't American high schools teach about Canada or Mexico? They are your neighbors.

After what I witnessed at both the middle and high school levels regarding Math curriculum, NCLB, and actual student knowledge, I decided that being a Math teacher was going to **** me off too much. When NCLB ends I may get my Math endorsement and teach Math as well. Reason: I am gifted in Math. I was taught Math the PROPER way (i.e. traditional) when I went to school. The way you guys teach Math here is quite counter-intuitive. If I can't understand an example in an American Math textbook something is definitely wrong with how you guys teach it here. Imagine how the students feel!

BTW, I am also a Computer Analyst/Programmer. Hence, I am a computer/technology genius - always have been. These skills are quite valuable to me as a teacher, because I've learned how to use technology properly in the classroom. This benefits students directly.

Recently it was noted in the news that the vast majority of New Mexico schools are NOT making AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). Throwing more money at the problem and/or making the school day longer as some people advocate is NOT the answer to solve this problem.

NOTE: For those that want to know regarding my New Mexico state exams required to become a high school Social Science teacher here are my scores so far:

1) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Teacher Basic Skills - 96%
2) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Content Knowledge (History, Geography, Economics, Civics, Government) - 90% (I would have scored higher, but I was not feeling very well when I wrote the exam)
3) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Secondary Teacher Knowledge - writing in the Fall (before student teaching phase from January-May 2012)

The PASS mark on all of these exams is 80%. Yes, 80%. Get 79% and you FAIL. So, the State of New Mexico does weed out bad teachers initially. i.e. the ones that do not know the content of their field.

Lately I have been thinking about returning to Canada to teach in my field. Reasons: The teacher pay and healthcare in America. The pay in New Mexico, as I illustrated above, is a bloody joke at best. I am gifted as a teacher so I think I should be paid more. I can make 50% more back in Canada, and that is just starting out as a teacher. The province where I hail from will also give me the FTE (Full Time Equivalent) of my substitute teaching experience in NM. By the time I graduate it will be almost three years full-time. So I would start on the third or fourth step on the teacher salary scale - almost $50,000 Cdn (roughly the same in US dollars). New Mexico will not even give me the FTE of my substitute teaching experience, and I am licensed in this state! Plus, after being back in Canada for three months I get my FREE healthcare back. My American wife would get it six months after living there as a permanent resident.

A lot to think about after we both graduate next summer...

Last edited by A Flock Of Budgies; 07-30-2011 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,747,102 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Flock Of Budgies View Post
Seeing as I was educated in Canada, and now teaching in the USA for four years, I feel I can make a few valid points here.

1) American students think their sole purpose at school is to text each other all day long
2) American Math and History curriculum is garbage
3) Americans, in general, do not care about educating themselves
4) Many American parents have an aversion to cooperating with teachers
5) Americans view teachers as the enemy (see the news for plenty of examples)
6) American teachers are poorly paid (see example)
7) American students are quite disrespectful to their peers and teachers
8) American teachers get 30 minutes for lunch? WTF?

Example of poor teacher pay:

In my state, New Mexico, beginning teachers get paid the following:

1) Bachelor's degree - $30,000
2) Master's degree - $30,002
3) Ph.D. - $30,006

This pay scale has been the SAME for the last SEVEN years. See the problem here? If you don't you really need to get some help.

When I went to high school we started at 9:00 a.m., broke for lunch at 12:00 p.m. until 1:00 p.m. (yes, a FULL HOUR!), finished at 3:30 p.m. Actual instruction time: 5.5 hours. Here in America, I start teaching at 7:30 a.m. (what an un-Godly hour!), have a 30-minute lunch at some point depending upon the size of the high school, and finish teaching at 2:30 p.m. Actual instruction time: 6.5 hours. Yet, Canadian students consistently outscore American students. Why is that?

The notion that more time in school (i.e. making the school day longer) will improve scores is poppycock. More time in school is not going to help with the fundamental issues that affect American public schooling: poor parental involvement, poor parenting skills (abuse/neglect), poverty, lack of discipline, garbage curriculum in many courses, etc. I could go on all day long...

Until American parents start VALUING educating themselves, never mind their kids, nothing will ever change. Sad fact, but reality.

I am a licensed substitute teacher with my degree from Canada - have been one for the last four years. After graduating from university next summer I am going to be a full teacher - high school Social Science (History, Geography, Economics, Civics, Government). Initially when I started my degree program I was going to become a Math teacher, but after one year of substitute teaching I changed my degree program to become a Social Science teacher. One reason: my love of United States history from when I took an optional American History class in Grade 10 back in Canada. Come to think of it why don't American high schools teach about Canada or Mexico? They are your neighbors.

After what I witnessed at both the middle and high school levels regarding Math curriculum, NCLB, and actual student knowledge, I decided that being a Math teacher was going to **** me off too much. When NCLB ends I may get my Math endorsement and teach Math as well. Reason: I am gifted in Math. I was taught Math the PROPER way (i.e. traditional) when I went to school. The way you guys teach Math here is quite counter-intuitive. If I can't understand an example in an American Math textbook something is definitely wrong with how you guys teach it here. Imagine how the students feel?

BTW, I am also a Computer Analyst/Programmer. Hence, I am a computer/technology genius - always have been. These skills are quite valuable to me as a teacher, because I've learned how to use technology properly in the classroom. This benefits students directly.

Recently it was noted in the news that the vast majority of New Mexico schools are NOT making AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). Throwing more money at the problem and/or making the school day longer as some people advocate is NOT the answer to solve this problem.

NOTE: For those that want to know regarding my New Mexico state exams required to become a high school Social Science teacher here are my scores so far:

1) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Teacher Basic Skills - 96%
2) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Content Knowledge (History, Geography, Economics, Civics, Government) - 90% (I would have scored higher, but I was not feeling very well when I wrote the exam)
3) New Mexico Teacher Assessment - Secondary Teacher Knowledge - writing in the Fall (before student teaching phase from January-May 2012)

The PASS mark on all of these exams is 80%. Yes, 80%. Get 79% and you FAIL.

Lately I have been thinking about returning to Canada to teach in my field. Reasons: The teacher pay and healthcare in America. The pay in New Mexico, as I illustrated above, is a bloody joke at best. I am gifted as a teacher so I think I should be paid more. I can make 50% more back in Canada, and that is just starting out as a teacher. The province where I hail from will also give me the FTE (Full Time Equivalent) of my substitute teaching experience in NM. By the time I graduate it will be almost three years full-time. So I would start on the third or fourth step on the teacher salary scale - almost $50,000 Cdn (roughly the same in US dollars). New Mexico will not even give me the FTE of my substitute teaching experience, and I am licensed in this state! Plus, after being back in Canada for three months I get my FREE healthcare back. My American wife would get it six months after living there as a permanent resident.

A lot to think about after we both graduate next summer...
Start with the fact Canadian students aren't sleeping through first hour. My first hour classes hardly participate. They're still asleep.

Our students also consider it everyone elses job, except theirs, to educate them. They see education as something forced upon them and that whole teacher as the enemy thing really drags things down.

I think you'd be much happier teaching in Canada. If you have the opportunity to go back, go. Interesitingly, we have one teacher who crosses the border to teach here instead of in Canada. I'm going to have to ask her why she does this. I'm curious.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: USA
67 posts, read 92,472 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Start with the fact Canadian students aren't sleeping through first hour. My first hour classes hardly participate. They're still asleep.

Our students also consider it everyone elses job, except theirs, to educate them. They see education as something forced upon them and that whole teacher as the enemy thing really drags things down.

I think you'd be much happier teaching in Canada. If you have the opportunity to go back, go. Interesitingly, we have one teacher who crosses the border to teach here instead of in Canada. I'm going to have to ask her why she does this. I'm curious.
LOL I am not even awake until 9:00 a.m. I can imagine how the students feel. I see my Grade 10 (this year) niece struggle to get up so early for school. By nature, high school students tend to stay up later. I was like that when I was in high school.

My wife and I are going to have to have some serious discussions regarding where to go teach. I love America, but this country is NOT the same country I fell in love with as a kid. Plus, between us we have almost $100,000 in student loans to pay back - starting salary is a DEFINITE issue IMO.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,747,102 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Flock Of Budgies View Post
LOL I am not even awake until 9:00 a.m. I can imagine how the students feel. I see my Grade 10 (this year) niece struggle to get up so early for school. By nature, high school students tend to stay up later. I was like that when I was in high school.

My wife and I are going to have to have some serious discussions regarding where to go teach. I love America, but this country is NOT the same country I fell in love with as a kid. Plus, between us we have almost $100,000 in student loans to pay back - starting salary is a DEFINITE issue IMO.
Study after study has shown that teenagers are predisposed to stay up late and sleep late and you can't change that. I remember being a teen and I could not fall asleep before midnight. I just couldn't. It didn't matter how tired I was or what time I had gotten up. I just couldn't fall asleep. I also didn't start really waking up until mid morning. Just shifting the start of school by one hour would improve education but they won't do it because of sports. IMO, that is stupid. At least go to 8:30 - 3:30 for school hours. I'd love to see a longer lunch too so the kids can get some of their socializing out of their systems.

We bring teens, who are naturally social, together, before they really wake up and can pay attention, herd them into rooms where we expect them to sit quietly for 50 minutes at a time and learn stuff they wouldn't really be intereseted in if they were awake and wonder why they talk, pass notes and text.

We NEED school to start later, longer breaks between classes so they can actually use the bathroom and a longer lunch so they can eat and do some socializing and not feel like every minute of their day is regimented.

Unfortunately, schools are responsible for what students do during school hours. Otherwise, I'd suggest an open campus. I wish I could let my better students just leave when they're done with a test or lab. I hate having to make them stay. I shouldn't have to baby sit kids who actually do what is expected of them and accept responsibility!!!! They should be rewarded.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,747,102 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Flock Of Budgies View Post
LOL I am not even awake until 9:00 a.m. I can imagine how the students feel. I see my Grade 10 (this year) niece struggle to get up so early for school. By nature, high school students tend to stay up later. I was like that when I was in high school.

My wife and I are going to have to have some serious discussions regarding where to go teach. I love America, but this country is NOT the same country I fell in love with as a kid. Plus, between us we have almost $100,000 in student loans to pay back - starting salary is a DEFINITE issue IMO.
Are you sure Canada is the same country you left? Things tend to change. I know two people who come across the Ambassador bridge every day to work here but live in Canada because pay is better here (but they do like Canadian benefits).
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:24 PM
 
Location: USA
67 posts, read 92,472 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Study after study has shown that teenagers are predisposed to stay up late and sleep late and you can't change that. I remember being a teen and I could not fall asleep before midnight. I just couldn't. It didn't matter how tired I was or what time I had gotten up. I just couldn't fall asleep. I also didn't start really waking up until mid morning. Just shifting the start of school by one hour would improve education but they won't do it because of sports. IMO, that is stupid. At least go to 8:30 - 3:30 for school hours. I'd love to see a longer lunch too so the kids can get some of their socializing out of their systems.

We bring teens, who are naturally social, together, before they really wake up and can pay attention, herd them into rooms where we expect them to sit quietly for 50 minutes at a time and learn stuff they wouldn't really be intereseted in if they were awake and wonder why they talk, pass notes and text.

We NEED school to start later, longer breaks between classes so they can actually use the bathroom and a longer lunch so they can eat and do some socializing and not feel like every minute of their day is regimented.

Unfortunately, schools are responsible for what students do during school hours. Otherwise, I'd suggest an open campus. I wish I could let my better students just leave when they're done with a test or lab. I hate having to make them stay. I shouldn't have to baby sit kids who actually do what is expected of them and accept responsibility!!!! They should be rewarded.
You've made a few valid points here. I agree with the length of the school day and the bathroom break time. When I had lunch for an hour, back in Canada, it was awesome. I had a fresh mind going back from 1:00-3:30 p.m. for my afternoon classes. Teachers also need the mental break IMO. 30 minutes is NOT enough time to do that.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: USA
67 posts, read 92,472 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Are you sure Canada is the same country you left? Things tend to change. I know two people who come across the Ambassador bridge every day to work here but live in Canada because pay is better here (but they do like Canadian benefits).
Yeah I am quite sure of that.

Where I come from the school districts pay $45,000 Cdn to start. With my sub experience, etc. I'd be closer to $50,000 to start my teaching career. Taxes are a little higher in Canada, but at least I would not have to mortgage a home just to have an operation in an emergency.

My wife even wants to leave America and she was born here! I would be sad if I left the United States to go back to Canada, because I really do love this country. I've been here for almost 10 years, and even more when you count my visits before I moved here.
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