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Old 07-14-2011, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Point being, other countries don't educate all of their kids--so the 10 ten percent or so in other countries are being compared to 100% of the kids here-of course our numbers are going to be worse. If you compare apples to apples, we will come out at or near the top.
Which countries are only educating the top 10%? None that I know of. My point is you need to compare the next 10% down from the top and our kids don't light a candle to many other countries. We're too busy making sure they feel good about themselves to teach them.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Which countries are only educating the top 10%? None that I know of. My point is you need to compare the next 10% down from the top and our kids don't light a candle to many other countries. We're too busy making sure they feel good about themselves to teach them.
Most--if you read my first post, most other countries do not have compulsory education past age 15/16, only the top students go on, others are shuffled into the work force, trade schools, etc.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Most--if you read my first post, most other countries do not have compulsory education past age 15/16, only the top students go on, others are shuffled into the work force, trade schools, etc.
That was our model too at one point. At 16 you could decide academic or vocational and finish HS on that track.

But we ditched that for the "everyone can go academic and go to college" route and we have kids in the academic system that shouldn't be.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,042,161 times
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
I'll tell you what happened:

1) Parents abandoned a collaborative mentality to education, taking instead a client mentality by saying, "You people need to educate my children." Show me a child making bad grades and I'll show you a parent who's asleep at the switch, one who foisted responsibility for his or her child's progress on the school.

2) The mission creep of socialization. It used to be that schools were there to impart knowledge and teach children how to think (As opposed to what to think). That was it. Today, schools devote huge amounts of time to ancillary things totally unrelated to their core mission such as diversity awareness and preventing bullying. Mind you, both are laudable in their own way. But the huge burden of social engineering takes more and more time and resources.

3) The takeover of extracurricular activities. All good in and of themselves. But they have become the tail that wags the dog. I mean, as an example, how many football coaches are teaching social studies in local high schools while far more qualified teachers go unhired?

4) Tenure for teachers. My kids attend one of the top public school systems in the country. But even there, you find some teachers who are just hanging on until retirement, barely doing the minimum. Yet if I performed my job the same way in the private sector, I wouldn't have a job. Why are we guaranteeing sub-par teachers employment?

5) Total lack of innovation. Education is, by far, the least creative enterprise in American life today. Its methods are pretty much the same as they were 150 years ago--only now it takes longer to teach less material. Yet we live in an age where knowledge is ubiquitous. We live in an age where one can learn the basics of a foreign language through Rosetta Stone in a matter of weeks, rather than slogging through the mindless tedium of the language lab.

What's more, this production line mentality is incredibly counterproductive. For example, why do the smart and motivated slog along at the same pace as the stupid and the lazy? Why aren't we giving students incentives to master the material quickly? Why do we force sixth graders who read at an 11th grade level read the same books as the rest of his class? Why aren't we giving children the means to graduate early? Why are we shackling kids to desks 180 days a year, when some could be done with the school year in half the time? Is it any wonder that teenagers are cynical burnouts? We made them that way with a mindless, dehumanizing system that squelches individuality and does not really reward achievement.

Does anybody have a real answer to those questions, instead of just parroting the orthodoxy of the education establishment?

I think there's a real conspiracy going on, and I'm usually not the conspiracy theory type. But this one is deep.

-I graduated highschool in 1996. Consider all that's gone on since then...

Housing boom, bust. Subprime disaster. Fraud, corruption on wall st. CEO abuse and incompetency, etc. "The Great Recession". China's rise, etc.

None of those were covered in school in the 90's. That's either an amazing coincidence, or they simply didn't want people to know what was going on. Where are goldman Sachs shenanigans in your highschool econ or history book? Not to be found. Where is CEO abuse or incompetence? Not to be found. Ethics???? Curiously absent.

Where are the debates in highschool about the abuse of power? The abuse of big industries? Hmmmm.

What about the history of the middle east? Why isn't that taught? Funny, how the places we spend the most money on (iraq, afghanistan), we study the least in school. Why is the history of the middle east almost ignored in highschool history books?

I call it a conspiracy, because it runs through every page of all the books in school. The mission of school I think is the keep you quiet. Not asking too many questions. I.e., highschool econ, you learn all these seemingly ok theories, that seem safe...supply and demand. Or this graph. Or this ___ model. They break it up into "safe" distinctions...micro and macro.

But what if the economy is brought down by 10 people and incompetency? Hmmm. That isn't in the models, is it? What if government incompetency throws us into a 10 year recession?

-They don't want innovation. That's too threatning to them. They don't want kids to be able to master material quickly...again, too threatning.

-I think school has stunted this generations ability to protest (i.e. in washington). how do you build up enough belief to protest something at age 23 or 28, if you had cursive taken away in school, you're tested all the time, lots of busy work, "diversity", "sharing", all this social engineering to make you feel good. I think thats done in part to stunt belief, individuality and conviction.

-The smart and motivated would ask too many questions that would rock the boat. I.e....I was taught in highschool, we "solved" depressions for lack of a better term. We learned from our mistakes, the govt makes things easier. We have more social safety nets, etc.

But, the depression of the 30's has taken a different form now....i.e., food stamps instead of a soup kitchen, increase in poverty, decrease in jobless benefits, changes in calculating employment. Many myths would be blown open through innovation. Do we need so many foreign language teachers if you can learn through Rosetta Stone?
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:39 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,910,285 times
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Originally Posted by John23 View Post
I think there's a real conspiracy going on, and I'm usually not the conspiracy theory type. But this one is deep.

-I graduated highschool in 1996. Consider all that's gone on since then...

Housing boom, bust. Subprime disaster. Fraud, corruption on wall st. CEO abuse and incompetency, etc. "The Great Recession". China's rise, etc.

None of those were covered in school in the 90's. That's either an amazing coincidence, or they simply didn't want people to know what was going on. Where are goldman Sachs shenanigans in your highschool econ or history book? Not to be found. Where is CEO abuse or incompetence? Not to be found. Ethics???? Curiously absent.

Where are the debates in highschool about the abuse of power? The abuse of big industries? Hmmmm.

What about the history of the middle east? Why isn't that taught? Funny, how the places we spend the most money on (iraq, afghanistan), we study the least in school. Why is the history of the middle east almost ignored in highschool history books?

I call it a conspiracy, because it runs through every page of all the books in school. The mission of school I think is the keep you quiet. Not asking too many questions. I.e., highschool econ, you learn all these seemingly ok theories, that seem safe...supply and demand. Or this graph. Or this ___ model. They break it up into "safe" distinctions...micro and macro.

But what if the economy is brought down by 10 people and incompetency? Hmmm. That isn't in the models, is it? What if government incompetency throws us into a 10 year recession?

-They don't want innovation. That's too threatning to them. They don't want kids to be able to master material quickly...again, too threatning.

-I think school has stunted this generations ability to protest (i.e. in washington). how do you build up enough belief to protest something at age 23 or 28, if you had cursive taken away in school, you're tested all the time, lots of busy work, "diversity", "sharing", all this social engineering to make you feel good. I think thats done in part to stunt belief, individuality and conviction.

-The smart and motivated would ask too many questions that would rock the boat. I.e....I was taught in highschool, we "solved" depressions for lack of a better term. We learned from our mistakes, the govt makes things easier. We have more social safety nets, etc.

But, the depression of the 30's has taken a different form now....i.e., food stamps instead of a soup kitchen, increase in poverty, decrease in jobless benefits, changes in calculating employment. Many myths would be blown open through innovation. Do we need so many foreign language teachers if you can learn through Rosetta Stone?
You weren't supposed to notice.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:49 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Most--if you read my first post, most other countries do not have compulsory education past age 15/16, only the top students go on, others are shuffled into the work force, trade schools, etc.
I don't agree that only the top 10% go on in those countries. You'll have to prove that if you wish to keep insisting on it as fact. I might believe the top half go on and the bottom half are shuffled into trade schools but I don't believe that 90% of students drop out of regular school in other countries at age 15/16.

Regardless, when you discount the top 10% here and there, you find that our students are not even on the same continent. Our top 10% compare favorably to their top 10% (lower but in competitive) but the next 10% aren't even in the same ballgame. THAT is what shows our education system is not competitive.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-15-2011 at 05:02 AM..
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:53 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
That was our model too at one point. At 16 you could decide academic or vocational and finish HS on that track.

But we ditched that for the "everyone can go academic and go to college" route and we have kids in the academic system that shouldn't be.
The problem is that you don't know who is college material until you try and many parents will not accept that their special snowflake isn't.

I'm someone who would have been flushed into a vocational track and no one ever would have questioned it. I excelled in college after floundering in high school. I would support an everyone tries the college bound track but also has a plan B system. A hybrid. You just don't know until you try. Perhaps it's time we had a grade 13 or even 14. Make an associates degree the new high school diploma but allow students to choose a vocational major during years 13 and 14 (just throwing out ideas so feel free to play devil's advocate). I do think we need a tracked system. Some kids are capable of learning everything I could teach them in chemistry in 9 months and I couldn't teach some of them half of it in 12. Why not have two versions of chemistry? The one year version and the two year version. I could actually teach all 12 unit documents if you did that. The faster kids can handle the pace and the slower kids would have two years to get there. You could do the same for algebra I and algebra II.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-15-2011 at 05:03 AM..
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:56 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,417,041 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't agree that only the top 10% go on in those countries. You'll have to prove that if you wish to keep insisting on it as fact. I might believe the top half go on and the bottom half are shuffled into trade schools but I don't believe that 90% of students drop out of regular school in other countries at age 15/16.

REGARDLESS, when you discount the top 10% here and there, you find that our students are not even on the same continent. Our top 10% compare favorably to their top 10% (lower but in competitive) but the next 10% aren't even in the same ballgame.
I don't agree with this either. Also, students don't "drop out" they are just "done", big difference. Take the UK, "college" for the UK is the rough equivalent of our community college system-where kids that are 16-18 go if they are not going on to University, which is roughly equivalent to our junior/senior year of high school and a couple years into college.
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
I don't agree with this either. Also, students don't "drop out" they are just "done", big difference. Take the UK, "college" for the UK is the rough equivalent of our community college system-where kids that are 16-18 go if they are not going on to University, which is roughly equivalent to our junior/senior year of high school and a couple years into college.
So why are you arguing with me? I'm saying you need to take the top 10% off and then compare the next 10%-20% to have a valid comparison. Unfortunately, when they do this, we do not compare. IMO, the biggest issue is our student's attitude towards education. It's not a privlidge here. It's something forced upon you. It's not desirable. It's undesirable. We hear constant complaints that kids are taugth things they don't need to learn as if every child comes with an instruction manual that declares what this particular child needs to learn and there is no possibility that they need to learn anything else. Our kids are self absorbed, arrogant and lazy.

We also need to consider that many of the comparisons being made are made long before graduation. The math comparisons (TIMSS?) are made in 4th and 8th grades when all or nearly all students should still be in school. It's actually these tests I'm talking about so the theory that half, or whatever percentage, of their kids aren't in the game doesn't really hold. Still, you need to lob off the top 10% in each country and then do your comparison. The top 10% seem to do well no matter where you plant them.

BTW, can I ask what tests you're talking about that are done after many of their kids are out of the system?
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,412 posts, read 9,567,758 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The problem is that you don't know who is college material until you try and many parents will not accept that their special snowflake isn't.

I'm someone who would have been flushed into a vocational track and no one ever would have questioned it. I excelled in college after floundering in high school. I would support an everyone tries the college bound track but also has a plan B system. A hybrid. You just don't know until you try. Perhaps it's time we had a grade 13 or even 14. Make an associates degree the new high school diploma but allow students to choose a vocational major during years 13 and 14 (just throwing out ideas so feel free to play devil's advocate). I do think we need a tracked system. Some kids are capable of learning everything I could teach them in chemistry in 9 months and I couldn't teach some of them half of it in 12. Why not have two versions of chemistry? The one year version and the two year version. I could actually teach all 12 unit documents if you did that. The faster kids can handle the pace and the slower kids would have two years to get there. You could do the same for algebra I and algebra II.
As someone who wasn't supposed to do well in college, I guess you're glad someone thought you were a special snowflake.
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