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Old 08-14-2011, 12:13 AM
 
Location: VA
549 posts, read 1,692,451 times
Reputation: 334

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Just wanted to clarify, punishments and rewards are both consequences. Consequences have a stigma of being something negative, but "punishment" is really the term you're looking for. I tell my students that all of their actions result in consequences (making them aware that they're held accountable for the good and the bad) - good behaviors result in positive consequences (rewards) and bad behaviors result in negative consequences (punishments).

I've seen schools that were incentive-based, rather than punishment-based. As much as schools want to steer away from punishments, it just doesn't work for so many reasons...
-Rewards can be expensive.
-Rewards must appeal to all students.
-Rewards should be varied, so the students don't tire of their incentive.
-Rewards don't build intrinsic motivation.
-Rewards lose their effect.
-Rewards only appeal to those that have a chance of getting the reward.

On the other hand...
-Punishments are necessary. You can't ignore certain behaviors.
-Punishments are effective. They don't alter all students' behavior, but they can reach those not motivated by rewards.
-Punishments, if used correctly, instill a good mixture of fear and respect. A kid that fears nothing will respect nothing.
-Punishments show everyone else that certain behaviors will not be tolerated, preventing followers.
-Punishing those that deserve it makes you feel vindicated. This comment's a joke... well, kind of.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Fairfield, CT
5,541 posts, read 8,202,280 times
Reputation: 5791
Quote:
Originally Posted by endersshadow View Post
Just wanted to clarify, punishments and rewards are both consequences. Consequences have a stigma of being something negative, but "punishment" is really the term you're looking for. I tell my students that all of their actions result in consequences (making them aware that they're held accountable for the good and the bad) - good behaviors result in positive consequences (rewards) and bad behaviors result in negative consequences (punishments).

I've seen schools that were incentive-based, rather than punishment-based. As much as schools want to steer away from punishments, it just doesn't work for so many reasons...
-Rewards can be expensive.
-Rewards must appeal to all students.
-Rewards should be varied, so the students don't tire of their incentive.
-Rewards don't build intrinsic motivation.
-Rewards lose their effect.
-Rewards only appeal to those that have a chance of getting the reward.

On the other hand...
-Punishments are necessary. You can't ignore certain behaviors.
-Punishments are effective. They don't alter all students' behavior, but they can reach those not motivated by rewards.
-Punishments, if used correctly, instill a good mixture of fear and respect. A kid that fears nothing will respect nothing.
-Punishments show everyone else that certain behaviors will not be tolerated, preventing followers.
-Punishing those that deserve it makes you feel vindicated. This comment's a joke... well, kind of.
This is a great post. I think positive rewards are good, but success in school is really the greatest positive award, and that can't really be granted; it has to be earned.

This philosophy does concern me. It seems too much like the false self-esteem philosophy and it could easily devolve into rewarding failure or very mediocre work or behavior. Also, once rewards become customary, they lose a lot of their power and become and entitlement.

I think it's unrealistic to exclude punishment as an option. There are some people who respond only to punishment, and when bad behavior goes unpunished, those promulgating attract a lot of followers who might otherwise be more quiescent, and the atmosphere degrades quickly.

My own personal experience is that I went to two kinds of schools -- one that tried to avoid punishment and one that embraced punishment as necessary. Even though I was sometimes the recipient of that punishment, I was much more comfortable in the stricter school because the atmosphere was more controlled (but not oppressive) and the boundaries were more clear.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:11 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,913,231 times
Reputation: 3504
Our school has served us the PBIS Kool-Aid. I'm supposed to hand out 5 SchoolBucks a day for use as an incentive. Never mind what the research says, even though we are a data-driven district. I'll do it, but I'm skeptical. With the students I have this year, the kinds of rewards that will motivate them are pretty much illegal.
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Old 08-14-2011, 01:14 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 6,473,591 times
Reputation: 4430
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey teach View Post
Has anyone here taught in a program for middle school where there are no consequences for poor behavior, but instead there are great incentives for good behavior.

Example: no restrictions for being tardy for class, but students who have no tardies over a specific period of time are rewarded.

The thought process is that students who do not preform up to standards will want to because they want the incentives.

I would like to hear experiences good or bad. Also, parent thoughts on this method.
Is it possible for you to provide more detail or find out if you don't have it?

The reason I say this is because of two examples in my experience.

The first was in a child care center and although the issue is different, the beginning is the same. We were going to work for accreditation through NAEYC, which meant tremendous changes throughout our center. The initial discussion had absolutely everyone in an uproar and nothing but negative thoughts and comments all the way around. Even from us in management. When we began to implement some of the changes it was chaos......until we had a different mentor advise us more clearly in the intentions. Once she gave us that info and some examples, we were much better able to understand the intent and rein in our implementation to work to the correct goals, which in turn brought us to a fully accredited status with the fantastic results to our center.


The second was several years ago and more similar to your post. Our elementary school got a new principal who wanted to implement a new strategy regarding behavior. I was on the executive board of the PTA at the time and was involved from the get go. It was interesting to see some staff state almost exactly what you posted above and it was far from the actuality of what she wanted to do. An idea was presented, but interpretation went from one end to the other.
It took several meetings, workshops and discussions before most of the teachers finally understood it all. Some never did and ended up leaving the school, and some left because they completely disagreed with it.

In this case the principal wanted to incorporate the fundamental philosophy of Love and Logic> This 'program' is centered around natural consequences with no real punishments and puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the students(children). Much of it works very very well, as long as the adult fully understands it, supports it and uses it consistently.

For an easy example that would apply in a middle school, say a student draws on a locker in the hallway with permanent marker. Instead of a teacher coming down on the student, perhaps issuing a detention or sending them to the office, the teacher would instead implement a Love and Logic strategy. They would say something like, "I am so sorry you chose to deface the locker. Now that class has begun, here is a rag and cleaner, use it to remove all the marks. Sadly you have to miss class until you have it all cleaned up.Let me know when you are done."

Not only does the student get the natural consequence of having to clean up the mess they made, they are also being made to stand out in the hallway alone while class is going on (which means no attention from their friends), they are also missing class instruction. Missing class instruction might mean another natural consequence of getting a lower grade or having to schedule an after school tutoring session to get caught up. All this would be done without any 'punishment' at all.

The idea is that the student made a bad choice and by making that choice it set their consequences. You had no hand in it and don't have to come up with anything. Sorry. It's all on them.

So, perhaps it is something like that?
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Old 08-14-2011, 01:32 PM
 
15,308 posts, read 16,874,788 times
Reputation: 15029
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajcb4bwZQnE&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-UeN6v-UP0&
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:43 AM
 
63 posts, read 97,859 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypocore View Post
Is it possible for you to provide more detail or find out if you don't have it?

The reason I say this is because of two examples in my experience.

The first was in a child care center and although the issue is different, the beginning is the same. We were going to work for accreditation through NAEYC, which meant tremendous changes throughout our center. The initial discussion had absolutely everyone in an uproar and nothing but negative thoughts and comments all the way around. Even from us in management. When we began to implement some of the changes it was chaos......until we had a different mentor advise us more clearly in the intentions. Once she gave us that info and some examples, we were much better able to understand the intent and rein in our implementation to work to the correct goals, which in turn brought us to a fully accredited status with the fantastic results to our center.


The second was several years ago and more similar to your post. Our elementary school got a new principal who wanted to implement a new strategy regarding behavior. I was on the executive board of the PTA at the time and was involved from the get go. It was interesting to see some staff state almost exactly what you posted above and it was far from the actuality of what she wanted to do. An idea was presented, but interpretation went from one end to the other.
It took several meetings, workshops and discussions before most of the teachers finally understood it all. Some never did and ended up leaving the school, and some left because they completely disagreed with it.

In this case the principal wanted to incorporate the fundamental philosophy of Love and Logic> This 'program' is centered around natural consequences with no real punishments and puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the students(children). Much of it works very very well, as long as the adult fully understands it, supports it and uses it consistently.

For an easy example that would apply in a middle school, say a student draws on a locker in the hallway with permanent marker. Instead of a teacher coming down on the student, perhaps issuing a detention or sending them to the office, the teacher would instead implement a Love and Logic strategy. They would say something like, "I am so sorry you chose to deface the locker. Now that class has begun, here is a rag and cleaner, use it to remove all the marks. Sadly you have to miss class until you have it all cleaned up.Let me know when you are done."

Not only does the student get the natural consequence of having to clean up the mess they made, they are also being made to stand out in the hallway alone while class is going on (which means no attention from their friends), they are also missing class instruction. Missing class instruction might mean another natural consequence of getting a lower grade or having to schedule an after school tutoring session to get caught up. All this would be done without any 'punishment' at all.

The idea is that the student made a bad choice and by making that choice it set their consequences. You had no hand in it and don't have to come up with anything. Sorry. It's all on them.

So, perhaps it is something like that?
I'll try not to be to harsh on you but the whole "love and logic approach," that some Kool-Aid. Just the fact that some NEW principal wants to come into a school and start making changes to something as touchy as how to discipline kids makes me boiling mad. These self-agrandizing egotist are what's causing most of the problems with our schools and education. They come in and start dictating to you how you are suppose to load the frickin dishwasher, you know what I mean, it's not rocket science. Give teachers some respect for God's sake. Stop pushing this or any other NEW program down our throats. I have a novel idea for all principals, asst. principals, and administrators in general, shut your damn mouth, go back to your frickin' office, find ways to make the school, students, staff, and teachers safer, figure out how to relieve teacher stresses and burdens, then figure out how to keep those 3% of hard-core trouble makers from destroying all that is good in this world. when you are finished with that, continue to the 1st classroom you find and relieve the teacher for a 10 minutute unscheduled break, and continue on to the next class, and keep repeating.... Everyone sees it differently. Communism is a failed form of govt. for the same basic reason. We don't look the same. we don't act the same. we don't think the same, which is exactly why these programs don't work. Even your own testimony points that out. programs need to be applied consistently, not just in 1 classroom, but throughout the school, that's never going to happen in real life. You're just going to **** teachers off, possibly lose some good teachers in the process, add stress to everyone, much better off just letting teachers be free to enforce discipline as they see fit so long as it's within reason. And, principals, asst. principles, and upper admin. you best be prepared to back them up, after all, that's your damn job.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
973 posts, read 1,442,959 times
Reputation: 1086
Hmmmm...all I can say is that you think they do this in Europe? China?? Japan?? South Korea???
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