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Old 07-27-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
20,879 posts, read 37,589,171 times
Reputation: 20972

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And WHO is gonna teach in the 'trade-schools'? (I am a huge advocate of them) BUT... when I served my apprenticeship in the 1970's, the average age of skilled workers in my trade was 68, By now they are getting pretty old to become teachers.

The US has shot itself in the foot. Many foreign countries have excellent trade schools, we will have to 'outsource' TRADES education, too!

College, and K-12 edu would benefit from outsourcing to a nation that delivers excellent results and has a proven longterm record to substantiate. (That would not include the US).

Our family survived and was raised by a single income 'blue collar' worker, as were all previous generations. It can be done well.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,047,401 times
Reputation: 2725
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
The educational/financial aid complex doesn't make as much money off people who go into trade schools. The graduates do not leave school with thousands of dollars of loans to pay back, so they are free to do as they like. There is a reason why student loans cannot be wiped out during bankruptcy proceedings.

I've begun telling my students that they need to make sure they can do something that can't be outsourced. A good example of that is plumbing. Learn a skill, get certification, and take business classes so that you can eventually be your own boss. That's what my students are hearing more and more.

Now there is an article in the New York Times saying that the master's is the new bachelor's degree. It is a matter of credentials creep. Now that everyone is expected to have a college degree, it is devalued. Thus, it is necessary to incur even more debt to get an advanced degree. In the meantime, the individual is not usually a full-time worker and the colleges get even more money.

It's always about the money.
I think there's a real conspiracy going on in k-12. It runs deep. They don't want people who are self sufficient, who can think for themselves.

-When I was in highschool in the 90's (in los angeles), everyone there (teachers, administrators, etc) was basically like an agent for 4 year colleges. I dont want to say paid shills, but close.

It's like if you go to a travel agent. And they have 5 different vacation packages. Do you ever notice how, sometimes they seem more enthusiastic about one package versus another?

"Don't go there". (lowers their head).

"That's ok. But you don't really want that".

"Oh, no. That's not meant for you".

Everyone at my school was basically like a Disney agent. "Oh, yes, that's what you need!" (college) (eyes brighten up). It's like they were paid more to sell Disney. They thought back to their own college days in the 60's or 70's when everything was different. They used a lot of vague generalities (i.e. you can be successful). Much like a Disney "experience". Trade schools were thought of as like going to a swamp.

The aim of school now is all about $$$$$. It's about weakening your self sufficency. Not being able to think for yourself. Getting you attached to a loan you may or may not need.

"It amzaes me at the amount of people who now do not know how to do anything other than sit behind a desk and push papers."

This isn't by accident. They don't want people outside of that norm. k-12 is a conditioning factory. They don't want seniors who think, "man, I can go to trade school, and be debt free". They'd rather have kids with these abstract notions in their head..."I've got to aim high, reach my potential". I've got to apply myself, etc = going to college. It's completely different than picking up a shovel.

Why all the testing if you're just going to pick up a shovel at the end? A lot of the SAT test prep companies wouldn't like that. They're the ones that really run the show.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
14,095 posts, read 23,009,013 times
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I believe part of the problem is elitist snobbish attitude some public school educators hold towards non-university careers. We need electricians, auto mechanics, HVAC mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, welders, and other trade jobs.
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
1,229 posts, read 2,772,285 times
Reputation: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
I believe part of the problem is elitist snobbish attitude some public school educators hold towards non-university careers. We need electricians, auto mechanics, HVAC mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, welders, and other trade jobs.

Well said! I have thought this for years.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,047 posts, read 98,999,163 times
Reputation: 31537
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
The educational/financial aid complex doesn't make as much money off people who go into trade schools. The graduates do not leave school with thousands of dollars of loans to pay back, so they are free to do as they like. There is a reason why student loans cannot be wiped out during bankruptcy proceedings.

I've begun telling my students that they need to make sure they can do something that can't be outsourced. A good example of that is plumbing. Learn a skill, get certification, and take business classes so that you can eventually be your own boss. That's what my students are hearing more and more.

Now there is an article in the New York Times saying that the master's is the new bachelor's degree. It is a matter of credentials creep. Now that everyone is expected to have a college degree, it is devalued. Thus, it is necessary to incur even more debt to get an advanced degree. In the meantime, the individual is not usually a full-time worker and the colleges get even more money.

It's always about the money.
That is not entirely true. A lot of trades are taught in private, for-profit schools and are very pricey.

************************************************** ****************

I'm going to be the gadfly here and say that I'm not real keen on 18 year old kids choosing a career for life, which is what you do if you go to trade school. I like the idea of trades being taught in the community colleges, where you can also pick up some academic credits and go on to get a degree if you find that's your "thing".
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Middle America
35,827 posts, read 39,500,156 times
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Push, no. Offer, yes.

The high school I attended does that now, did when I was a student there in the 1990s, and always did. It's located in an agricultural/industrial area, where there aren't very many jobs even available for the college-degreed. Vocational track has always been an option, there, and was taught at the area Vocational Careers Center, which was a part of the local community college system. Students who did this track had the option of continuing it after high school at the CC. I did the college prep track, myself, but many of my peers did vo-tech. My cousin, who still lives in our hometown, and now runs his dad and grandpa's HVAC/plumbing service did.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
1,229 posts, read 2,772,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherrenee View Post
I agree.

It amazes me at the amount of people who now do not know how to do anything other than sit behind a desk and push papers. I know when my husband was laid off in 2009 it was his skill (as an electrician) that kept us going. If had had worked in some office pushing paper we would have been up a creek.

My husband went to 4 year trade school in order to get his license but I still find people who have the attitude that this is some how not equivalent to going to college nor is it as valued as a college degree.

While some college degree's that are needed, most just equal out to an expensive piece of paper.

this is off the subject, but wow I should not write post when I am tired lol. My spelling sucks more than usual then.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,416 posts, read 9,582,942 times
Reputation: 8587
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
I believe part of the problem is elitist snobbish attitude some public school educators hold towards non-university careers. We need electricians, auto mechanics, HVAC mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, welders, and other trade jobs.
Would you consider that attitude to be owned by public school educators? I think a lot of parents and people in general (especially in certain areas) hold similar attitudes.
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:32 PM
 
541 posts, read 798,909 times
Reputation: 525
I'm not for sure where the snobbish attitude comes from, but all I know is trade school was never considered/pushed while I was in high school and I graduated back in 2000. I never even considered it 11 years ago and instead did the traditonal college route.

It's still not talked about at the school district I went to because I've been to various elementary, middle, and high schools and all I see are posters that talk about the tradtional 4 year college.
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Midwest transplant
1,986 posts, read 4,799,353 times
Reputation: 1513
Most teachers graduate from college at 22 or 23 and enter the classroom. Perhaps they had summer jobs in business and industry (service, skilled, seasonal) or part time jobs while they were in school, but for the most part education has been their only constant. Started school at 5 and 17 years later they become teacher. Many do have the attitude (not sure if snobby is the adjective I would use) that college is the way to go. Much of this is based on their life experience and the fact that they were just immersed in the life of academia for all of those years. These same teachers most likely never took a career education course as part of their undergraduate preparation.

When they have to include careers in their units of study, their frame of reference is on the careers that require BA/BS or beyond. The teachers who returned to education after working in another career are often the most knowledgeable about the "other" job sectors that are starving for skilled, talented, resourceful, problem solving, team members.

I found that even administrators are hesitant to promote the "other" educational avenues; the armed services, a "gap year", apprenticeships and 2 year technical or trade schools or the Adult Vocational Education programs. I spent weeks and days having students research the cost/benefits of going to college and/or trade/tech. training programs. When they were witness to their executive parents, friends and teachers losing their jobs in this economy, they were much more receptive and selective about their education plans upon leaving high school.

I agree that they shouldn't be tied to one job/career at such an early age, but I do believe that we must impress upon them that they must be lifelong learners and prepare to always be training for the next phase of their employment. Statistics say that, on average, most people will have 5-7 occupations in their lifetime of working. The days of working 35 years for one employer and retiring at a certain age are slowly fading away.
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