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Old 07-29-2011, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Compared to who? Seriously, I don't know a single person with a skilled trade who lost their job but I know plenty of engineers who lost theirs. I still have the same plumber, furnace tech, mechanic and service rep at the dealership I had when the first recession started! While my brother used to be a mechanic, he was moved up to management. Now the recession has resulted in them making less money but they are still working. My step son is in infrastructure construction and he has more work than he can handle and has throughout the recession. Now, if he were in new home construction, that would be a different story.
Compared to people who do not have a college degree.

Education pays ...

Still, I think emphasis on trade schools is a great idea - not everyone is college-material or would be interested in college. Have the salaries for these jobs kept up with the cost of living?
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,044 posts, read 98,981,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Compared to who? Seriously, I don't know a single person with a skilled trade who lost their job but I know plenty of engineers who lost theirs. I still have the same plumber, furnace tech, mechanic and service rep at the dealership I had when the first recession started! While my brother used to be a mechanic, he was moved up to management. Now the recession has resulted in them making less money but they are still working. My step son is in infrastructure construction and he has more work than he can handle and has throughout the recession. Now, if he were in new home construction, that would be a different story.

In the meantime, we have downsized out our housekeeper and our lawn service. Both non skilled labor. I still have my financial advisor (the only degreed person I happen to employ).

I have two masters degrees and I've been let go from two jobs in the last four years. I'll likely be looking again either next year or the following (either that or buy into the teach to the bottom of the class mantra). I will likely have to leave the state or even the country to find work in engineering, while my neighbor, a millwright, is still working for the company I used to work for as an engineer!!!!

From where I sit, the skilled trades are much more stable. While people may put off cosmetic car repairs, during a recession, they keep their cars longer and have to do what they have to do to keep them running so the mechanic is safe. Recession or not, I have to have my furnace cleaned and water leaks fixed so my furnace guy and my plumber are safe (Neither of them is tied to new home construction. They just do home service.)

Medical is the only degreed area I see as stable at all.
According to the statistics, the more education you have, the less likely you are to be unemployed, though education does not affect lenght of UE by much:

When A College Education Doesn't Help You Find A Job [CHART]

Chart of the Day 02/07/2011 - Unemployment Rate by Educational Attainment

Now, neither of these articles refers to the trades specifically, but people in trades do not usually have college degrees as well. Some do have associate's degrees, if they got their trade education at a community college.

The fact that you have the same mechanic, etc, doesn't mean that there are a lot of openings for new mechanics and the like, either.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,044 posts, read 98,981,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
And people in the trades tend to have more career satisfaction and life satisfaction. My brother spent years in car body repair. He got a lot of satisfaction in fixing people's cars, made a decent living and never took his work home with him!! I have an engineering education worth over $50K and I ended up out of work. He dropped out of engineering school. Seems he made the better choice.
"Job satisfaction" and "life satisfaction" are pretty hard to measure; I don't know how you can make a blanket statement like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
Don't you all still have tech options for your high school students? We have this in my area: Lehigh Career & Technical Institute The campus adjoins the community college and students can take classes there too if they qualify.

As a parent, I find the attitude is changing from hoping that our kids go on to college to hoping they get a job, with benefits, whenever. After college, after high school - whenever.

I have nothing against a job in a trade if you have the aptitude for it. You can't turn a person that doesn't like to work with their hands into a plumber or carpenter.
We have a Vo-Tech school in our district as well.

Arapahoe Campus High School

Our local CC also has a lot of "trade" type programs, plus certificates.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Compared to people who do not have a college degree.

Education pays ...

Still, I think emphasis on trade schools is a great idea - not everyone is college-material or would be interested in college. Have the salaries for these jobs kept up with the cost of living?
BUT that includes non trades people and this thread is about whether or not trades should be pushed. Yes, educated beats uneducated but does it beat skilled trades? Not in my neck of the woods. Everyone I know, with a skilled trade, has remained employed throughout multiple recessions here in Michigan. I can name dozens of people with degrees who have eneded up out of work and a few with no trade or degree. Seriously, I don't know a single skilled trade person who has lost a job and I know a lot of them because I used to work for one of the automotive companies! The trend there tends to be not replacing the trades who retire not laying off the ones working while about 50% of the engineers have been let go.

Now, non skilled workers like line workers are another story. Many of them lost jobs when plants closed and couldn't move to other plants but they fall into the category of uneducated without a trade and I do believe that is, probably, the hardest hit segment of the population.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:25 AM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,245,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
BUT that includes non trades people and this thread is about whether or not trades should be pushed. Yes, educated beats uneducated but does it beat skilled trades? Not in my neck of the woods. Everyone I know, with a skilled trade, has remained employed throughout multiple recessions here in Michigan. I can name dozens of people with degrees who have eneded up out of work and a few with no trade or degree. Seriously, I don't know a single skilled trade person who has lost a job and I know a lot of them because I used to work for one of the automotive companies! The trend there tends to be not replacing the trades who retire not laying off the ones working while about 50% of the engineers have been let go.

Now, non skilled workers like line workers are another story. Many of them lost jobs when plants closed and couldn't move to other plants but they fall into the category of uneducated without a trade and I do believe that is, probably, the hardest hit segment of the population.
Skilled trade workers would generally have technical or associates degrees. Therefore, based on those statistics the comparison is 7% or higher to 5.4% or lower.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:43 AM
 
2,076 posts, read 3,687,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
Skilled trade workers would generally have technical or associates degrees. Therefore, based on those statistics the comparison is 7% or higher to 5.4% or lower.
Yes but those statistics include associates degrees not in skilled trade.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
According to the statistics, the more education you have, the less likely you are to be unemployed, though education does not affect lenght of UE by much:

When A College Education Doesn't Help You Find A Job [CHART]

Chart of the Day 02/07/2011 - Unemployment Rate by Educational Attainment

Now, neither of these articles refers to the trades specifically, but people in trades do not usually have college degrees as well. Some do have associate's degrees, if they got their trade education at a community college.

The fact that you have the same mechanic, etc, doesn't mean that there are a lot of openings for new mechanics and the like, either.
I never said there were job openings. I said people weren't losing those jobs and people who never lost their jobs have weathered the recessions well (exept for the loss in value of their home). You don't need openings if you don't lose your job. OTOH, I've seen about 50% of the engineers I know lose their jobs and about half of them were unable to find work in their field. While my brother probably couldn't replace his job as a mechanic, he doesn't need to because he didn't lose it. The only reason I have a job at all is I was ready for a career change when I was let go from my engineering job and my job is unstable. I expect to be terminated before I'm allowed to tenure. I think that will be the trend in the future to keep education costs down. My next move will be out of the country as that's the only signs of life I'm seeing in the engineering market. I just need to figure out which language I need to purchase the Rosetta Stone program for. If I spoke spanish, I never would have lost my engineering job.

I have no doubt that uneducated non skilled trades workers have been the hardest hit in the recessions. Those who are easiest to replace are the first to go. I just think that skilled trades are more stable than people with degrees even if their jobs are, likely, harder to replace if they lost them. They are more limited than the educated but more secure in their current jobs. While I'm degreed in engineering and education, I can go several routes to gain employment. I'd make less but any job is better than none.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnytang24 View Post
Yes but those statistics include associates degrees not in skilled trade.
Just comparing degree levels, I would expect the numbers to look better with more education but the question still is whether having a skilled trade is better than a degree. I know this is anecdotal but, from where I sit, a skilled trade is much better because you're less likely to have lost your job in the first place and people who never lost their jobs have done quite well in this economy.

My street is telling. There was about an equal mixture of skilled trades and engineers (close to an automotive complex). Most of the skilled trades are making home renovations and buying RV's while most of the engineers have walked away from houses to take jobs in other states. Only one of the few engineers who remain have done well but he never lost his job. Two of us stayed and weathered long term unemployment. One found work back in engineering and I went into teaching. Four of the engineers left to take work in other states. Many of the houses that others left still sit vacant. When this recession started, I knew 7 engineers and 6 skilled trades on my street. All of the skilled trades are still here (I think one has retired). They're making less but still employed. All but three engineers are gone and I'm no longer an engineer. So much for that higher education helping me. I would have been better of if I'd been a millwright.

If either of my kids had the inclination to become a plumber or an electrician, I'd tell them to go for it. I will steer them clear of education, and engineering as I see both tanking in this country. Right now, one dd wants to be a pediatrician and the other either a nurse or a vet. Medical is about the only educated area I see doing well.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,044 posts, read 98,981,287 times
Reputation: 31537
The stats are set up the way they are. We can't do anything about that. However, first of all, the statistics are hard evidence, and secondly, the people with college degrees still come out on top, no matter how you look at it. If the trades people do not have associate's degrees or "some college" (which is how some of the stats are compiled) they are lumped in with high school graduates.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The stats are set up the way they are. We can't do anything about that. However, first of all, the statistics are hard evidence, and secondly, the people with college degrees still come out on top, no matter how you look at it. If the trades people do not have associate's degrees or "some college" (which is how some of the stats are compiled) they are lumped in with high school graduates.
Most I know have associates degrees in their trades, however, there are way more associates degrees than just those in the trades (I have one myself in math). I would expect someone who has a non trade associates degree would be struggling more than someone with a trade or with a masters degree, however, I think people with masters degrees are struggling more than people with trades wheter or not they even have a degree.

When I walk down my street, 4 out of 5 people who have kept their jobs are in the trades. Few of the eduated people I know have kept theirs and most of those who lost thiers walked away from homes to take jobs elsewhere. Trades people aren't walking away from homes here, in fact, they're doing renovations because they figure they're stuck here because they couldn't sell if they had to.

I would not think twice about advising my kids to go into a trade instead of getting a college degree. I think it's a lot more stable. While there may not be job growth, there hasn't been the reductions seen in segments like engineering in the past either. People will always need cars repaired, plumbing work done and furnaces worked on.
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