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Old 08-24-2011, 10:44 PM
 
355 posts, read 920,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinnamon_toast View Post
Either that, or s/he is just jealous they don't have summers "off", too.
I do have summers *mostly* off, and no, I don't have anything against teachers.

I just don't want to buy them more than say a Christmas gift, and an end of year gift.

Four to six gifts a year is gauging. I love my hairdresser, and she does my hair every 10 weeks. And she gets one gift from me--at Christmas. And she's never ASKED me (or had her receptionist ask) for a gift, or given me a list of favorite items.

I think these teachers (they know damn well the moms are asking for pedicures, dinners, etc.) are using our kids as leverage. Or maybe playing on parent guilt.

I'm putting my foot down this year.

Who knows maybe I'll go after the soccer snack brigade next! Who's kid needs a Capri Sun and a bag of Doritos @ 10 am anyway?
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
399 posts, read 1,799,451 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar2007 View Post
Oh and another thing, our world is rapidly changing if you haven't noticed. The US is in serious dire straits and thousands of people are struggling to keep afloat and food in their bellies. Get a grip, teachers are not the only ones who are being laid off and having their rescources cut.
The US has been behind the school dumpster for several decades, smoking cigarettes or something. Meanwhile China and India have been in the library every day, all day, reading the books we used to write.

Yes, of course we've all noticed: we are in dire straits. Yet you propose we change our present course by (in part) defending the status quo? If teachers would quit their bellyachin' then we'd all get through this just fine? Before you try and AM-Radio me, I'm not saying that what our education system needs is more money. Long before money what it needs is a proper valuation. And this would require a change of attitude from those who look down on it (and the people who make it work) with such cynicism and disdain.

How many Chinese parents stay up at night, tossing and turning over etiquette indiscretions committed by overpaid teachers?

But back to the apples. Does anyone else wonder how far the OP's apple has fallen from the OP tree? I'd guess not very. For better or worse, they rarely fall far. Now what are the chances the next generation will somehow have more respect for, or put more value into, or be more obliging of, the teachers and the time they spend with our kids?

Dire straits indeed.
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:57 AM
 
7 posts, read 20,333 times
Reputation: 56
Originally Posted by lonestar2007:
America is a free country (at least for now), so there are choices. No one is forcing anybody (at this stage of the game at least) to be a teacher. There are precious few jobs that don't have drawbacks and many of them major, so pick your poison, but Lord Almighty, stop with the constant bellyaching.

I know eveyone has gripes about their jobs, but so many teachers are just whiney babies and it is sickening. You hate your jobs that much, it reflects in your performance and the kids pay the ultimate price. Far too many people enter the teaching profession with the intention of being more or less glorified babysitters and then if any demands or stress is put upon them, they just freak out. For everyone's sake, get a different job!


This point of view isn't based in reality or even common sense.

I made - and continue to make - a pretty healthy royalty income garnered from roughly two decades of professional experience outside (and prior to) teaching. Pay wasn't a factor in my deciding to teach. Nor did I have any intention of being a "more or less glorified babysitter." I wanted to give back, and I was willing to jump through various hoops to do it. For me, that included an MA (my second) in education. As a successful writer and music producer, I have had a lot of real-world experience that translates pretty well into the world of education. (Anyone who has worked with musicians for more than a few hours will understand this!) I speak seven languages either fluently or to a pretty advanced extent. I've done formal coursework in three others. I have two separate BAs and two separate MAs. I've supported myself wholly from the age of eighteen, and completed my four university-level degrees without borrowing a single penny from anyone.

I was hired about four minutes into my first interview for a teaching position. This can be viewed as a reason for suspicion, but I knew I was pretty insanely qualified, so why not? The school year was already seven weeks in; I was the third English teacher "my" kids had had that year, and it was only October. (The first had a breakdown; the second asked to see her contract, ripped it into pieces and never returned.) Despite being a fairly pragmatic person, my optimism and enthusiasm dimmed quickly. My goal soon became to last until the end of the year. Not for the money - I (literally) could make ten times my teaching pay doing minor work from my computer. I did it solely so that my students wouldn't have to suffer through yet another teacher change within that very school year.

The state of education in this country is dire. And it's not because of "bellyachin'." It's because the profession has lost much of the few things that made it vaguely alluring for good-hearted, selfless people. The pay is worse than ever, the hours and expectations are implausibly unrealistic. Just five years ago, teachers were being promised incredible job security and benefits by the same folks who quickly betrayed those same promises. We've become a country that doesn't - and won't - listen to legitimate gripes from members of what's probably America's most crucial profession. Even in this thread, the low pay and incredible number of working hours has been made clear, but one still sees a lot of "Oh, they get summers off, hurfdurf . . ." comments. (And for the record, in my school we weren't allowed to have assistants or parent helpers or even visitors from outside the staff enter the classroom for "safety" reasons.)

Lonestar2007, you're wrong about how teachers effect students - it's the good, conscientious ones who leave (and still argue for teachers), not the bad, lazy ones. Without having been a teacher, this might be hard to see. I note that, although my teaching days were short and years ago, I still read your posts and notice your problems with subject / verb agreement, when to use an adverb instead of an adjective, how to use a comma (and many more.) It's possible that you never had a really great English teacher and really can't make a good judgement here.
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Old 08-25-2011, 05:56 AM
 
2,596 posts, read 5,570,679 times
Reputation: 3996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
Maybe you ought to pick up a copy of Strunk and White then- one paragraph, one idea and all. Being that you put both thoughts in the same paragraph, proper writing mechanics suggest that you meant for them to be related somehow.
Perhaps you should reexamine the paragraph. You might then discover that the first sentence adequately covered all examples given in the paragraph. Looks like you did a bit too much ass-uming.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
679 posts, read 1,797,470 times
Reputation: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonlime22 View Post
Who knows maybe I'll go after the soccer snack brigade next! Who's kid needs a Capri Sun and a bag of Doritos @ 10 am anyway?
I'll agree with you on that. When my husband or I coach teams, we say straight up front that if you want to bring a snack for after the game, you can feel free to bring your own. No complaints yet!

But really its your tone that is off-putting and insulting. And your assumption that most every teacher is in teaching for some reason other than the love of kids. My experience has been polar opposite so either you are in some crazy-bad school district or you are taking one example and acting like they're all that way.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:07 AM
 
2,596 posts, read 5,570,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonlime22 View Post
I do have summers *mostly* off, and no, I don't have anything against teachers. I just don't want to buy them more than say a Christmas gift, and an end of year gift.

Four to six gifts a year is gauging. I love my hairdresser, and she does my hair every 10 weeks. And she gets one gift from me--at Christmas. And she's never ASKED me (or had her receptionist ask) for a gift, or given me a list of favorite items.
The sad thing is, I actually agree with you wholeheartedly about how inappropriate it is to be pressured to send gifts. I dislike that whether it's the scenario you described, or at the office when everyone is informed they need to give $15 for a baby shower gift. In some offices that like to celebrate birthdays, babies, marriages... you can start getting multiple requests per month and they're often accompanied by, "Amy is in charge of collecting everyone's $15. Get your share in and don't make her come find you!" It's not just schools. People should feel free to donate what they wish to, but schools and workplaces are the wrong environments to be suggesting gifts. Celebrations can be done with families at home, or people who want to celebrate can choose to do so independently. It's unprofessional and puts pressure on those who may not have the means or desire to contribute again and again.

It's quite a shame that message is now mostly lost because of the nasty and unnecessary comments you chose to post about teachers in general.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:04 AM
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Location: Ohio
17,107 posts, read 38,008,209 times
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This long ago ceased to be a local topic. Please follow the discussion to Politics and Other Controversies.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:12 AM
 
Location: #
9,598 posts, read 16,522,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aswyth View Post
I was a teacher. The school district gave us $28 per year for "supplies." That included everything - chalk, paper, pens, staples, dry erase markers . . . and photocopying. Of course, this money lasted about a week (for example, we had to make our own quizzes, tests and homework assignments - kids weren't allowed to take home books, nor were they given anything resembling a workbook.) After that, all supplies came out of our pocket.

Similarly, we had to provide food and snacks to many of the kids. Just buying lunches for hungry students cost me more than $100 every week - more than 20% of my paycheck. Most of the kids were eligible for free or reduced lunches, but many of their parents refused to (or couldn't) fill out the form necessary for this, and so buying lunch for the kids was the only way to keep them going through the day.

I watched kids cut each other with knives, walked into empty classrooms to find 11 and 12 year-old girls performing oral six on boys, was told that students could not be held after school for detention because this meant there would be no way for them to get home. I had kids who showed up only once or twice per semester, but they were not kicked out of school or disciplined - it wasn't allowed.

Despite being an English teacher, I was told that student scores were especially horrible in math, and therefore I had to teach math instead, at least for the next two months. The students then went from one math class to another - they had no English class. That said, most of these kids were functionally illiterate; a few didn't know the alphabet.

There was no one to complain to about any of this, it came down from the administrators at both the school and the district. nearly every teacher I met was an alcoholic from the stress. The burnout rate was unbelievable. There were other young and enthusiastic teachers there, but we did not renew our contracts at the end of the year. As far as I know, we all left teaching for good.

A majority of people who enter teaching will no longer be teachers after five years. It's a horrible job, and in most places - contrary to what the first person person wrote - it does not always offer especially good health care or pensions. At my school, teachers were regularly fired and the union didn't care. Teachers spent most of their free days grading papers, keeping up their required continuing education courses (on their own dime) and planning curriculum. Studies have shown that teachers work more hours throughout the year than nearly any other profession requiring a college degree. Their pay is among the worst for people with similar levels of education.

During the school year, I regularly worked 90 hours a week - I had to be at school at 6:30 am until 5:00 pm. That's 55 hours a week right there. I also coached (this wasn't legally a requirement, but you couldn't get away with not doing it) three days a week until 8 pm. That makes 64 hours. I can't remember ever *not* having at least a couple of hours of grading and preparation at night, and I normally put in 12 hours on the weekend, including school functions. We left a week after the students during the summer and came back two weeks before the students. Averaging it out, we still worked, what, 80 hours a week? I kept track of my hours, and after completing my year of teaching, I made roughly $7.21 per hour for every hour I worked. Subtract out-of-pocket expenses and I made far less than minimum wage - and I have an MA. This isn't as unusual as one might think.

Once, I e-mailed every student and parent about an upcoming parent-teacher conference. I called each parent twice. I sent notes home with the students. Other teachers did the same. The entire school (of about 700 students) received 10 total visits from parents. I had none myself.

Obviously, this was not one of the country's better school districts. But more than 20% of America's children live in federally-defined poverty and attend similar schools. (And the government's definition of poverty for a family of four today is around $22,000 in annual income - this is far below what poverty really means in much of the country. Where I taught, the cheapest one bedroom apartments ran around $700 a month, not including utilities. A family of four might easily pay 60% of their total income to live in something just an inch above squalor.)

Yeah, I think the whole grabby teacher thing is a bit sad. But the job, for most teachers, is horribly underpaid and insecure. I know many people (including myself, now that I'm relatively wealthy) who live in places with stellar, high-paid teachers. They are the exceptions to the rule, and even they tend to be making much less in constant dollars than their peers were just a decade ago. And you really don't have any idea what teaching costs them out-of-pocket.

Teaching has never been a great job, really. But what many parents don't realize is it's now more poorly-paid than ever, rarely appreciated and for many teachers, a roulette wheel of nerves each year when they're laid-off and can only hope that they may be extended another one-year contract come July or August.

Here's a link about a couple of great Austin teachers, and what they went through:

The devastating layoffs that shook our lives - Pinched: Tales from an Economic Downturn - Salon.com

The good news is that after attempting to sell their house and find new jobs, both were rehired, luckily, although at a more than $8000 loss teaching the same number of students. Many others weren't so lucky.
I'm going to guess since you mention Austin that you were a teacher in Texas.

Your post is exactly why Teachers need unions. Real unions. Not the phoney baloney ones like they have in Texas, either.

I only hear about these stories of teachers shelling out a lot of money in non-union states. And make no mistake about it, Texas is non-union for teachers. Politicians, media etc. constantly get away with referring to teaching federations as "unions". It's almost as if we've convinced ourselves they exist here.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:31 AM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,461,788 times
Reputation: 3133
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonlime22 View Post
LOVING my kiddos being in school these past two days!

Was surprised to find a letter in my daughter's backpack with an envelope attached with the words "due Friday" on it.

It was a letter from another teacher (and co-worker) announcing my daughter's teacher's birthday. It would be "VERY helpful" for me to send some cash to school so that this friend/teacher could buy the teacher (from the class) with the birthday a gift card to a nice restaurant to dine with "her husband and children" so that she will "know how much we appreciate her".

WHAT?! I just met her a couple days ago! Isn't Christmas, Valentine's Day, Teacher Appreciation Day and and end of school year gift enough? Apparently not.

There seems to be no end to their tactless begging. A couple years ago one of my daughter's teacher's alerted us to her Amazon page. Last year my other daughter's teacher not only sent out a "wish list" (she wanted a director's chair) highlighting favorite colors, stores, and restaurants, but things she DIDN'T like. "No coffee or hand lotion, please".

I don't know if this is done in other regions of the country--most of my friends have older kids. It DOES seem to get worse every year...

If I weren't worried it would come back to bite my kids (you gotta wonder) I would complain to the District. This has really gotten out of hand. And I hate when these 'room moms' get my kids to nag me for the gifts/cash. "Mommy, don't forget we're buying Mrs. So-and-So a pedicure before she goes on maternity leave! Nathan's mommy said they need the money RIGHT NOW!"

And if you're a teacher who thinks I'm an awful mom, too bad. You get paid, you have awesome health benefits, you have a pension plan, a union that will never fire you, you have ALL summer off, Christmas, Spring break, and most postal holidays off! Quit yer bellyachin'!

Tell me I'm not alone...
Wow, I'm a teacher and I think that's pretty tactless. Hell, I'd be thrilled with a bushel of apples on my birthday. Seriously. I love those things. (Fuji, please)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar2007 View Post
America is a free country (at least for now), so there are choices. No one is forcing anybody (at this stage of the game at least) to be a teacher. There are precious few jobs that don't have drawbacks and many of them major, so pick your poison, but Lord Almighty, stop with the constant bellyaching.

I know eveyone has gripes about their jobs, but so many teachers are just whiney babies and it is sickening. You hate your jobs that much, it reflects in your performance and the kids pay the ultimate price. Far too many people enter the teaching profession with the intention of being more or less glorified babysitters and then if any demands or stress is put upon them, they just freak out. For everyone's sake, get a different job!
That's the problem. They are, and the result is a revolving door of rookie teachers who have little experience, while our education suffers. I'm fortunate. I teach in a nice school district in Michigan with decent pay and benefits, but that's not the case across much of the South and West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aswyth View Post
Originally Posted by lonestar2007:
America is a free country (at least for now), so there are choices. No one is forcing anybody (at this stage of the game at least) to be a teacher. There are precious few jobs that don't have drawbacks and many of them major, so pick your poison, but Lord Almighty, stop with the constant bellyaching.

I know eveyone has gripes about their jobs, but so many teachers are just whiney babies and it is sickening. You hate your jobs that much, it reflects in your performance and the kids pay the ultimate price. Far too many people enter the teaching profession with the intention of being more or less glorified babysitters and then if any demands or stress is put upon them, they just freak out. For everyone's sake, get a different job!

This point of view isn't based in reality or even common sense.

I made - and continue to make - a pretty healthy royalty income garnered from roughly two decades of professional experience outside (and prior to) teaching. Pay wasn't a factor in my deciding to teach. Nor did I have any intention of being a "more or less glorified babysitter." I wanted to give back, and I was willing to jump through various hoops to do it. For me, that included an MA (my second) in education. As a successful writer and music producer, I have had a lot of real-world experience that translates pretty well into the world of education. (Anyone who has worked with musicians for more than a few hours will understand this!) I speak seven languages either fluently or to a pretty advanced extent. I've done formal coursework in three others. I have two separate BAs and two separate MAs. I've supported myself wholly from the age of eighteen, and completed my four university-level degrees without borrowing a single penny from anyone.

I was hired about four minutes into my first interview for a teaching position. This can be viewed as a reason for suspicion, but I knew I was pretty insanely qualified, so why not? The school year was already seven weeks in; I was the third English teacher "my" kids had had that year, and it was only October. (The first had a breakdown; the second asked to see her contract, ripped it into pieces and never returned.) Despite being a fairly pragmatic person, my optimism and enthusiasm dimmed quickly. My goal soon became to last until the end of the year. Not for the money - I (literally) could make ten times my teaching pay doing minor work from my computer. I did it solely so that my students wouldn't have to suffer through yet another teacher change within that very school year.

The state of education in this country is dire. And it's not because of "bellyachin'." It's because the profession has lost much of the few things that made it vaguely alluring for good-hearted, selfless people. The pay is worse than ever, the hours and expectations are implausibly unrealistic. Just five years ago, teachers were being promised incredible job security and benefits by the same folks who quickly betrayed those same promises. We've become a country that doesn't - and won't - listen to legitimate gripes from members of what's probably America's most crucial profession. Even in this thread, the low pay and incredible number of working hours has been made clear, but one still sees a lot of "Oh, they get summers off, hurfdurf . . ." comments. (And for the record, in my school we weren't allowed to have assistants or parent helpers or even visitors from outside the staff enter the classroom for "safety" reasons.)

Lonestar2007, you're wrong about how teachers effect students - it's the good, conscientious ones who leave (and still argue for teachers), not the bad, lazy ones. Without having been a teacher, this might be hard to see. I note that, although my teaching days were short and years ago, I still read your posts and notice your problems with subject / verb agreement, when to use an adverb instead of an adjective, how to use a comma (and many more.) It's possible that you never had a really great English teacher and really can't make a good judgement here.
Excellent post. Couldn't have put it any better.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:45 AM
 
5,064 posts, read 5,709,429 times
Reputation: 4769
Quote:
Originally Posted by FueledByBlueBell View Post
Would I rather make a triple digit salary with 5 weeks vacation knowing that I can get an increase if I hit my performance plan and the company does well? Or would I rather make a teacher's salary and have little control over my job? Clearly people have made their decision and you don't see the world's brightest minds choosing teaching over finance, management consulting, IT, etc. to become a teacher (unfortunately).
I guess we've been lucky then. My daughter has had one fantastic teacher after another. Her kindergarten teacher had her PhD and worked 100 hours a week, easily. She allowed parents to volunteer whenever they wanted, and the kids got to do so many extra projects to help the learn in multiple ways. And every teacher she has had since then has been wonderful. Any of them could have been successful anywhere, and they choose to teach.

My son has had a few wonderful teachers and a few duds.

I was one of the room moms last year, and we sent home a sheet of paper saying, "I like Mrs. Jones because" and asked the kids to fill it in for her birthday. Most children also sent in a gift, but we didn't request that.

We collected $10 for party supplies at the beginning of the year- school sets the amount per child and it's optional. And we collected for a gift card at the end of the year. Our parents must not share the sentiments in this thread because we collected $345 from a class of 20. And I'm pretty sure everyone didn't contribute. We didn't request a certain amount, so parents sent in whatever they were comfortable giving.

Our school doesn't sell anything- the PTO requests a donation for each child. Usually between $75-$100. They use that money to pay for a technology teacher and fund the science lab and outdoor classroom. I appreciate having a school that provides so many options for our children.

This thread makes me really happy that my children attend a school where the parents are able and willing to contribute time and money to their children's education.

BTW- I agree that it's inappropriate for another teacher to collect money for a birthday in the first couple days of school. And I understand not everyone can afford to contribute to things or has time to volunteer.
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