U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-06-2011, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,041,067 times
Reputation: 2725

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You missed the point. The jobs they'd fill if they did have tech training aren't there. We don't have a shortage of tech workers. We have a glut.

Actually, we aren't giving the same education we did 50 years ago. 50 years ago education was tracked and many kids simply never graduated. You were only college bound if you were on the top track.

The elite don't care what the non elite do or whether they carrry debt or not. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the elite would just as soon not have the competition for their kids WRT jobs. The problem is, there aren't a bunch of tech jobs waiting for kids we train for tech jobs. There are only so many service sector jobs to go around. It only makes sense for public schools to do tech training if kids will actually have jobs when they are done.

Also, if you want a mobile population, you need one with broad skills and enough education to be adaptable. Training that is too specific is not mobile. It's limited. I read somewhere that the average person entering the work force today will bave something like 13 different occupations in their lifetime. That being the case, the most broad education they can get is the best one to have. A broad education makes them more trainable as things change. When looked at in this light, giving all kids a high quality education makes sense even though many will be in tech positions. The issue is the tech positions are going to change, multiple times, during their lifetime and they have to be prepared to change with them.
If there's a glut of tech/vocational jobs....why do electricians charge $80 an hour, or plumbers?

I had a small beehive removed about 2 weeks. Pretty small, about half the size of a little cantaloupe or melon, about the size of the palm of your hand. The guy charged...$150??? With a two month guarantee. Any kind of extermination or pest control...its going to rack up $$$.

Why are kids getting steered into marginal degrees (with significant debt)...and not being directed into jobs that can charge $50-100 an hour (plumbing, electrician)?

It's a total scam. Kids seems to be steered into the worst degrees, with the lowest payout ratio (i.e. $50,000 degree, but working for $10 an hour at starbucks). Even if some tech job salaries got cut in half....$30-40 an hour is better than many jobs.

There seems to be all these straw man arguements, with little facts in the debate. Even if there is a glut of plumbers or electricians....there's a bigger glut of pyschology or art history degrees. But it seems ok to put them into that glut.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-06-2011, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,701,651 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
If there's a glut of tech/vocational jobs....why do electricians charge $80 an hour, or plumbers?

I had a small beehive removed about 2 weeks. Pretty small, about half the size of a little cantaloupe or melon, about the size of the palm of your hand. The guy charged...$150??? With a two month guarantee. Any kind of extermination or pest control...its going to rack up $$$.

Why are kids getting steered into marginal degrees (with significant debt)...and not being directed into jobs that can charge $50-100 an hour (plumbing, electrician)?

It's a total scam. Kids seems to be steered into the worst degrees, with the lowest payout ratio (i.e. $50,000 degree, but working for $10 an hour at starbucks). Even if some tech job salaries got cut in half....$30-40 an hour is better than many jobs.

There seems to be all these straw man arguements, with little facts in the debate. Even if there is a glut of plumbers or electricians....there's a bigger glut of pyschology or art history degrees. But it seems ok to put them into that glut.
Yes, there seems to be a lack of understanding regarding economic principles in this thread. Couldn't rep you again, so +1.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
Didn't your governor refuse the federal money to not have to deal with NCLB? Good for you that CO can stand tough and maintain local control.

Unfortunately our state has some of the highest taxes and most elected officis will not risk losing any federal money. Our municpalities are already having to fund many unfunded mandates. With Race to the Top the stakes are even higher. There is a strong belief that politics (our senator supported McCain) negatively impacted our standing in the competition for funds.
No, that was Utah, and in the end they took the money. Money does talk.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50...state.html.csp
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
If there's a glut of tech/vocational jobs....why do electricians charge $80 an hour, or plumbers?

I had a small beehive removed about 2 weeks. Pretty small, about half the size of a little cantaloupe or melon, about the size of the palm of your hand. The guy charged...$150??? With a two month guarantee. Any kind of extermination or pest control...its going to rack up $$$.

Why are kids getting steered into marginal degrees (with significant debt)...and not being directed into jobs that can charge $50-100 an hour (plumbing, electrician)?

It's a total scam. Kids seems to be steered into the worst degrees, with the lowest payout ratio (i.e. $50,000 degree, but working for $10 an hour at starbucks). Even if some tech job salaries got cut in half....$30-40 an hour is better than many jobs.

There seems to be all these straw man arguements, with little facts in the debate. Even if there is a glut of plumbers or electricians....there's a bigger glut of pyschology or art history degrees. But it seems ok to put them into that glut.
UGH. The fact is, we can only support a certain percentage of people going into trades. There WILL BE a glut if we push trades. As things are now, enough people seem to find their way into the trades to take care of our needs. I don't see a shortage of electricians or plumbers. In fact, I see some who can't find enough work. Mine always manage to get to my house within 24 hours. It's not like customers are having to wait to be serviced because there's a shortage. There is no shortage.

As to their hourly rate, you have to consider their drive time as well. I may pay $90 for an hour of work but it took my plumber half an hour to get to my house from his last job and it will take him half an hour to get to his next job. For people who make house calls, you need to consider drive time, the cost of gas and wear and tear on a vehicle. If my plumber has to drive half an hour between jobs, he only gets two hours of work done for every three hours he "works". So he's making more like $60/hour less expenses.

I'm afaid you're the one with the straw man arguments. Let's say, for argument's sake, that we double the number of plumbers and cut their hourly rate in half to $45/hour. Plumbers have to travel between jobs and the $45/hour is just for time actually worked. If our plumber has to drive half an hour between jobs, he's really getting $45/hour and a half not $45/hour or $30/hour. Sounds ok, until you factor in he now has half as many jobs because there are twice as many plumbers. So, our two plumbers don't make half of what our single plumber made, he makes 1/4th. Let's hope he's not trying to pay for medical benefits for a family of four out of that $30/hour part time job he now has, as he's likely working for himself. ... Oh and he also has to pay for gas and wear and tear on a vehicle to get from job to job. You need to take a basic math class...

What do plumbers have to do with art history majors? They're totally unrelated. That too many people choose art history majors is a different problem. We have no reason to believe that any of them would even make good plumbers.... AND, a fact you seem to overlook, people with degrees have a lower unemployment rate than people who don't have degrees. Granted, there are no guarantees but you do improve your odds.

And I don't see kids being steered towards useless majors. I see some choosing useless majors (usless in that the objective isn't to get a job) but maybe they didn't choose that major to get a job. Believe it or not, some people go to school to get an education and then worry about getting a job...

And I'm kind of laughing because my neice just got her psych degree and she's working three jobs because she's in high demand. She's teaching classes in one university on line, in person in another and working in a local clinic. She's chosen to take all three jobs because she has student loans to pay off.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-06-2011 at 04:22 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
Yes, there seems to be a lack of understanding regarding economic principles in this thread. Couldn't rep you again, so +1.
Steering more people towards trades will NOT create more NEED for people in the trades. Without need for more people in the trades, you've just sold them a different useless degree (certificate or whatever it is plumbers and electricians get). If you flood the market and demand goes down, so do wages so now we have lower paid trades and significant unemployment in the trades. Exactly what do you think you've solved here?

From my perspective, more plumbers would be great. I could pay less but the plumbers would make a lot less because they'd not only get lower pay, they'd get fewer jobs. You're just trading one low paying job for another. The problem is, my need for a plumber doesn't increase because there are more of them. I've had my plumber in twice in the last year. Once to rebuild a faucet and once to snake my main drain. I paid him $220 for the two house calls. How many customers like me does he need to make a decent living? How many will he lose when you flood the market with plumbers?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,764 posts, read 7,701,651 times
Reputation: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Steering more people towards trades will NOT create more NEED for people in the trades. Without need for more people in the trades, you've just sold them a different useless degree (certificate or whatever it is plumbers and electricians get). If you flood the market and demand goes down, so does wages so now we have lower paid trades and significant unemployment in the trades. Exactly what do you think you've solved here?
I don't think anybody should be steered into anything. I don't believe in centralized planning. It's not my place to solve anything.

I believe people should have the opportunity to figure out what they love to do and be encouraged to pursue that. Unfortunately, we (meaning the public school system) have decided that some courses of employment are more important/prestigious then others and discouraged people that would prefer to work with their hands. In some cases we've denigrated them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
I don't think anybody should be steered into anything. I don't believe in centralized planning. It's not my place to solve anything.

I believe people should have the opportunity to figure out what they love to do and be encouraged to pursue that. Unfortunately, we (meaning the public school system) have decided that some courses of employment are more important/prestigious then others and discouraged people that would prefer to work with their hands. In some cases we've denigrated them.
They HAVE the opportunity to choose what they want to do!! No one forces you to pick a certain major in college. Parents may choose what they'll pay for but, last time I looked, students chose their own majors.

No, society has decided that certain types of employment are more important/prestigious. So what? If they're not for you, they're not for you. You don't become a doctor because being a doctor is respectable. You become a doctor because you want to practice medicine. It doesn't matter what others think is prestigious.

It's not like anyone is picking your occupation at 12. Unfortunately, pushing trades at the high school level would be kind of like picking their trade at 16. IMO, better to let them graduate first and then decide what they want to do with the rest of their lives. The rest of your life is a long time if you pick wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:30 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,909,037 times
Reputation: 3504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Steering more people towards trades will NOT create more NEED for people in the trades. Without need for more people in the trades, you've just sold them a different useless degree (certificate or whatever it is plumbers and electricians get). If you flood the market and demand goes down, so does wages so now we have lower paid trades and significant unemployment in the trades. Exactly what do you think you've solved here?
The problem was exacerbated when women began flooding the workplace. A man had been able to support a family of four on one salary for most of the industrial era. A couple of generations later, we have two problems resulting from women's employment in traditionally male settings--wage stagnation/deflation and high unemployment.

Let's face it. The country used to run fine when the norm was one major job per household. When women entered the workforce en masse, we didn't suddenly have need for that many more employees. With the surplus employees, wages dropped. Now the norm in most places is that it takes two full-time incomes to support a family of four, and not even necessarily at the same standard as one wage supplied in the 50s and 60s.

I don't think the system is set up for kids to fail. I think it's set up for just about everyone to fail. Think of who benefits from the current situation and consider the schools that they provide for their children. The top tier private schools start at more money than I bring home as a 26-year teaching veteran. It's clear what side of the economic divide I live on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:40 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,507,010 times
Reputation: 4494
Every plumber, electrician, and general repairman that has serviced my home in the last five years has been past the typical age of retirement, and they won't be around forever. Who will replace them?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2011, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,041,067 times
Reputation: 2725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
UGH. I didn't say there was a glut. I said that we can only support a certain percentage of people going into trades. There WILL BE a glut if we push trades. As things are now, enough people seem to find their way into the trades to take care of our needs. I don't see a shortage of electricians or plumbers. Mine always manage to get to my house within 24 hours.

As to their hourly rate, you have to consider their drive time as well. I may pay $90 for an hour of work but it took my plumber half an hour to get to my house from his last job and it will take him half an hour to get to his next job. For people who make house calls, you need to consider drive time, the cost of gas and wear and tear on a vehicle. If my plumber has to drive half an hour between jobs, he only gets two hours of work done for every three hours he "works". So he's making more like $60/hour less expenses.

I'm afaid you're the one with the straw man arguments. Let's say, for argument's sake, that we double the number of plumbers and cut their hourly rate in half to $45/hour. Plumbers have to travel between jobs and the $45/hour is just for time actually worked. If our plumber has to drive half an hour between jobs, he's really getting $45/hour and a half not $45/hour or $30/hour. Sounds ok, until you factor in he now has half as many jobs because there are twice as many plumbers. So, our two plumbers don't make half of what our single plumber made, he makes 1/4th. Let's hope he's not trying to pay for medical benefits for a family of four out of that $30/hour part time job he now has, as he's likely working for himself. ... Oh and he also has to pay for gas and wear and tear on a vehicle to get from job to job. You need to take a basic math class...

What do plumbers have to do with art history majors? They're totally unrelated. That too many people choose art history majors is a different problem. We have no reason to believe that any of them would even make good plumbers.... AND, a fact you seem to overlook, people with degrees have a lower unemployment rate than people who don't have degrees. Granted, there are no guarantees but you do improve your odds.
What about drive time if you're working at Starbucks or Walmart?

-Driving time doesn't negate the fact that it is still a lot of money at your house, for the service. Wouldn't you like to pay $10 at your house, for an electrician or plumber? Is there an electrician or plumber in the country who charges $10-20 at your house, even if drive time is an hour. Or even if he's doing 2 jobs in 4 hours.

At your house, there's a service being done. And currently, its more valuable than walmart or starbucks. There's all kinds of extraneous expenses involved in different professions....i.e. how many teachers have to pay out of pocket for things?

-If you work at starbucks or walmart, you have to pay gas and wear and tear on your vehicle. Aren't there business deductions you can take as a plumber or electrician?

Kids get none of the benefits of being a plumber or electrician. They get the disadvantages of being weak, naive (and with weak bargaining power)...i.e. non unionized walmart or starbucks jobs. There's a higher threat of competition and being replaced with cheaper labor at walmart or starbucks.

Kids are being S-C-A-M-M-E-D. It's as plain as day. The elite don't want them with real, marketable skills. Skills that can last. Don't plumbing or electrician skills last a lifetime? Don't you know many of them who have been in the business for 10-20 years?

If you connect the dots, I don't think the elite want them set for life. I think they want to put hoops in front of them (that their friends will benefit from)....i.e. college test prep companies, thats a huge business, for profit colleges...where the president makes $500 k or $2 million a year). Student loan companies, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top