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Old 09-07-2011, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
If my son decides he doesn't want to go to college then I'm not going to push him. My whole point is it is not up to you or me to tell someone else he should or should not go to college. If my son wants to be a plumber or electrician then more power to him. He says he wants to build things. Once he figures out what he wants to build then he can take the appropriate path to reach his goal, that might be an engineering program or it might be a trade program. Ultimately, it is up to him.

If taxes support public schools then they should serve ALL that attend and that includes kids that have no interest in post secondary education.
How do you propose the schools "serve" those who don't want to continue their educations? The purpose of the schools is what society wants it to be. While college prep is part of that, you can get a diploma without taking college prep class numero uno. It's your choice.

If there were a generic trades track, I could see offering it but how do you handle the fact that each trade needs different things? Becomming a dental hygienist is different than becomming a plumber which is different th an becomming an electrician which is different than becomming a carpenter which is different than becomming a hair dresser which is different than becomming a mechanic....and so on and so on and so on...How much money do we have for individual tracks for all these trades? I would think it would be more cost effective to have trades schools that you can go to if you don't want to go to college.

My area does have trades in the high schools. Several districts have banded together, each offering one area and kids are bussed between them. I would really like to see how man of these kids actually get jobs in the trade they study.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,021 posts, read 98,892,281 times
Reputation: 31456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
How do you propose the schools "serve" those who don't want to continue their educations? The purpose of the schools is what society wants it to be. While college prep is part of that, you can get a diploma without taking college prep class numero uno. It's your choice.

If there were a generic trades track, I could see offering it but how do you handle the fact that each trade needs different things? Becomming a dental hygienist is different than becomming a plumber which is different th an becomming an electrician which is different than becomming a carpenter which is different than becomming a hair dresser which is different than becomming a mechanic....and so on and so on and so on...How much money do we have for individual tracks for all these trades? I would think it would be more cost effective to have trades schools that you can go to if you don't want to go to college.

My area does have trades in the high schools. Several districts have banded together, each offering one area and kids are bussed between them. I would really like to see how man of these kids actually get jobs in the trade they study.
To add to this, many trades take a number of years to become proficient in. Electricians, plumbers have their own track system that takes 4-5 years after high school.

We Know: How to Become a Plumber

My school district's vo-tech teaches stuff that can be completed in a period of time from one semester to two years, e.g.

Automotive Technology
Collision Repair Technology
Criminology: To be announced
Esthetician
Graphic Communications
Green House Management
Hair Styling
Health Care Careers: Nursing Assistant, Health Forensics, Health Science Technology
IT Academy (Web & Gaming Applications and Computer Information Systems)
Nail Technician
Water Science: To be announced


and also has an agreement with the local community college for articulation credits.

Career and Technical Education Center

There is simply a limit on what kids of this age with the amount of education they have can be taught.
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Rocking the 609
362 posts, read 876,096 times
Reputation: 174
I do think there's a way for trades to be taught but I think it shouldn't be up to every individual district. Where I grew up in PA, there was a countywide vo-tech school/trade school. During the day, it offered 10th-12th graders the chance to go learn plumbing, cosmetology, carpentry, etc. Like someone mentioned upthread - students would go there for half a day and take their trades and a few other classes there (I think math was one of them) and then spend the other half of the day at their home district high school.

From what I remember, the kids that went typically WERE the lower achievers in general academics (with the exception of a guy who went for computer related stuff and then went on to Penn State after). I'm not entirely sure if it was "tracking" as my district phased that out when I was in junior high/high school or just the kids interest. I should note here I grew up in a somewhat rural area where most people worked manufacturing and college graduates were rare. (So not the situation where many parents were pushing their kids to go to college whether they were ready or not.) Although, it WAS true that a lot of the other kids looked down on them (I believe the term we used was "vo-tard").

Anyway, flash forward from 1998 when I graduated to present and a good number of these "vo-tards" did eventually make good livings and open their own hair salons, paving companies, etc - although some clearly washed out and didn't make a go at whatever they were studying in votech and are back working retail. Would the ones that didn't succeed be better off being prepared for college so they could go if they wanted? Possibly. Would that have changed anything for them? I really don't know.

I do think it's great that the people I knew who were interested in this were given the opportunity at 16 and if they're happy that's great. A lot of these kids probably weren't going to get the chance to go to college for financial reasons. In fact, of my senior class - the bulk who went to college (and graduated) were the honors students who went on scholarship (myself included). However, a lot of people I know ended up going to school a few years later when they realized what they wanted to do - like a guy who in high school seemed checked out/drunk all the time. Around 20 or so he sobered up, got himself together and put himself through a BSN while working in a hospital. I don't think ANYONE could've forseen that out of him at 16. For the record, he DIDN'T go the votech program and did the general college prep thing. He probably would've had a harder time choosing that route if he'd gone to vo-tech for the auto repair program

I should also note that the vo-tech school (which was since renamed Career Tech something) also takes adult students after the traditional school day ends so this might help with the funding somewhat (as in, adult students pay tuition and probably help subsidize the high schoolers during the day so the home districts don't have a huge portion of the budget going to this)
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Rocking the 609
362 posts, read 876,096 times
Reputation: 174
And back to the OP: Get your kid some help in terms of a tutor (and possibly other support services if his social anxiety is so bad he can't be tutored one on one) so he can pass his class and graduate or work with him to find another solution to a traditional high school be it a GED / homeschooling / an alternative charter / trade school. Stop waiting for the system to change, your son is a junior, it's not going to change dramatically in the next two school years. There's a lot to be said for things that should happen but you can't wait for life to hand you what you need or the perfect solution to land in your lap. You need to go out there and FIND it sometimes. It sucks, it's not fair but that's life
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:33 AM
 
11,615 posts, read 19,735,299 times
Reputation: 12051
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
What about drive time if you're working at Starbucks or Walmart?
If you work at Starbucks or Walmart you drive (let's say half an hour) then you work your 8 hour shift and then you leave. That's a total of one hour drive time for 8 hours of work. If you are plumber who has to drive 15 minutes between 8 one hour jobs and then back home that's 2 hours and 15 minutes drive time for 8 hours of work. Even at half the amount of time to get to the job the plumber drives more than twice as much as the Starbucks employee for the same number of work hours.

The Starbucks employee is out of his house 9 hours for 8 hours work. The plumber is out of his house 10 hours, 15 minutes for 8 hours work. And that only holds up if the plumber has jobs that are 15 minutes apart. The plumber is also putting more than twice as many miles on his car.

What you pay for a service is not the same as what a plumber makes. It is not 100% profit.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
What about drive time if you're working at Starbucks or Walmart?

-Driving time doesn't negate the fact that it is still a lot of money at your house, for the service. Wouldn't you like to pay $10 at your house, for an electrician or plumber? Is there an electrician or plumber in the country who charges $10-20 at your house, even if drive time is an hour. Or even if he's doing 2 jobs in 4 hours.

At your house, there's a service being done. And currently, its more valuable than walmart or starbucks. There's all kinds of extraneous expenses involved in different professions....i.e. how many teachers have to pay out of pocket for things?

-If you work at starbucks or walmart, you have to pay gas and wear and tear on your vehicle. Aren't there business deductions you can take as a plumber or electrician?

Kids get none of the benefits of being a plumber or electrician. They get the disadvantages of being weak, naive (and with weak bargaining power)...i.e. non unionized walmart or starbucks jobs. There's a higher threat of competition and being replaced with cheaper labor at walmart or starbucks.

Kids are being S-C-A-M-M-E-D. It's as plain as day. The elite don't want them with real, marketable skills. Skills that can last. Don't plumbing or electrician skills last a lifetime? Don't you know many of them who have been in the business for 10-20 years?

If you connect the dots, I don't think the elite want them set for life. I think they want to put hoops in front of them (that their friends will benefit from)....i.e. college test prep companies, thats a huge business, for profit colleges...where the president makes $500 k or $2 million a year). Student loan companies, etc.
HUH?? If you drive to Walmart or Startbucks, you drive to work, work 8 hours, get paid for 8 hours and drive home. My plumber drives to my house, works for an hour, gets paid for an hour, drives to someone elses house, works for an hour, gets paid for an hour, and so on and so on and so on. Depending on where his jobs are, he can drive more than he works in a 10 hour day.

Um, no, I would not like to pay $10/hr for an electrician or plumber. If I'm paying $10/hr and you factor in drive time, they aren't even making minimum wage. Ever heard the saying "You get what you pay for?". I wouldn't expect someone making minimum wage to know the job. My plumber is worth $100/hr because he knows what he's doing and because he's willing to drive to my house and snake the crap (literally) out of my drains. Flooding the market with plumbers would do nothing to improve quality. It would just mean there are a lot of plumbers working part time.

Kids are not being scammed. Education isn't just about getting a job. THAT's what trades school is for.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
If you work at Starbucks or Walmart you drive (let's say half an hour) then you work your 8 hour shift and then you leave. That's a total of one hour drive time for 8 hours of work. If you are plumber who has to drive 15 minutes between 8 one hour jobs and then back home that's 2 hours and 15 minutes drive time for 8 hours of work. Even at half the amount of time to get to the job the plumber drives more than twice as much as the Starbucks employee for the same number of work hours.

The Starbucks employee is out of his house 9 hours for 8 hours work. The plumber is out of his house 10 hours, 15 minutes for 8 hours work. And that only holds up if the plumber has jobs that are 15 minutes apart. The plumber is also putting more than twice as many miles on his car.

What you pay for a service is not the same as what a plumber makes. It is not 100% profit.
And the plumber isn't paid for that drive time which occurs DURING work hours. If a Walmart or Starbucks employee had to drive to another location during his shift, he'd still be on the clock. When I worked in engineering, my pay was not docked for drive time between meetings. That drive time just became part of my normal work day. My company did, however, give a gas mileage allowance. When I worked for KFC and would deliver things between stores or go to another store to fill in when they were short, I was still on the clock when I drove between stores. Plumbers are only on the clock when they are actually working.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-08-2011 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower7 View Post
I do think there's a way for trades to be taught but I think it shouldn't be up to every individual district. Where I grew up in PA, there was a countywide vo-tech school/trade school. During the day, it offered 10th-12th graders the chance to go learn plumbing, cosmetology, carpentry, etc. Like someone mentioned upthread - students would go there for half a day and take their trades and a few other classes there (I think math was one of them) and then spend the other half of the day at their home district high school.

From what I remember, the kids that went typically WERE the lower achievers in general academics (with the exception of a guy who went for computer related stuff and then went on to Penn State after). I'm not entirely sure if it was "tracking" as my district phased that out when I was in junior high/high school or just the kids interest. I should note here I grew up in a somewhat rural area where most people worked manufacturing and college graduates were rare. (So not the situation where many parents were pushing their kids to go to college whether they were ready or not.) Although, it WAS true that a lot of the other kids looked down on them (I believe the term we used was "vo-tard").

Anyway, flash forward from 1998 when I graduated to present and a good number of these "vo-tards" did eventually make good livings and open their own hair salons, paving companies, etc - although some clearly washed out and didn't make a go at whatever they were studying in votech and are back working retail. Would the ones that didn't succeed be better off being prepared for college so they could go if they wanted? Possibly. Would that have changed anything for them? I really don't know.

I do think it's great that the people I knew who were interested in this were given the opportunity at 16 and if they're happy that's great. A lot of these kids probably weren't going to get the chance to go to college for financial reasons. In fact, of my senior class - the bulk who went to college (and graduated) were the honors students who went on scholarship (myself included). However, a lot of people I know ended up going to school a few years later when they realized what they wanted to do - like a guy who in high school seemed checked out/drunk all the time. Around 20 or so he sobered up, got himself together and put himself through a BSN while working in a hospital. I don't think ANYONE could've forseen that out of him at 16. For the record, he DIDN'T go the votech program and did the general college prep thing. He probably would've had a harder time choosing that route if he'd gone to vo-tech for the auto repair program

I should also note that the vo-tech school (which was since renamed Career Tech something) also takes adult students after the traditional school day ends so this might help with the funding somewhat (as in, adult students pay tuition and probably help subsidize the high schoolers during the day so the home districts don't have a huge portion of the budget going to this)

Individual schools simply do not have the resources to be everthing to everyone. If that is what we intend public schools to be, we'd better throw A LOT more money at the schools so they can offer everything anyone might want to take.

I can see a county wide program or a co-op with several districts each offering one trade and bussing students between schools.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,042,817 times
Reputation: 2725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
HUH?? If you drive to Walmart or Startbucks, you drive to work, work 8 hours, get paid for 8 hours and drive home. My plumber drives to my house, works for an hour, gets paid for an hour, drives to someone elses house, works for an hour, gets paid for an hour, and so on and so on and so on. Depending on where his jobs are, he can drive more than he works in a 10 hour day.

Um, no, I would not like to pay $10/hr for an electrician or plumber. If I'm paying $10/hr and you factor in drive time, they aren't even making minimum wage. Ever heard the saying "You get what you pay for?". I wouldn't expect someone making minimum wage to know the job. My plumber is worth $100/hr because he knows what he's doing and because he's willing to drive to my house and snake the crap (literally) out of my drains. Flooding the market with plumbers would do nothing to improve quality. It would just mean there are a lot of plumbers working part time.

Kids are not being scammed. Education isn't just about getting a job. THAT's what trades school is for.
"Kids are not being scammed"

Then why is technical school funding only $1 billion

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/bu...pagewanted=all

Why is it being cut if jobs are going overseas and unemployment is up here in the US?

"Kids are not being scammed"....why is there such an emphasis on testing? Testing kids all the time in math and english....is that going to help them be a competent plumber charging $60 or $100 an hour? Why all the emphasis away from skills?
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
"Kids are not being scammed"

Then why is technical school funding only $1 billion

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/bu...pagewanted=all

Why is it being cut if jobs are going overseas and unemployment is up here in the US?

"Kids are not being scammed"....why is there such an emphasis on testing? Testing kids all the time in math and english....is that going to help them be a competent plumber charging $60 or $100 an hour? Why all the emphasis away from skills?
Demand? What gets funded is what the tax payers want to get funded. When society WANTS more tech programs, they'll demand them and pay for them.

AS THINGS ARE NOW, enough people are going into the trades that society is NOT hurting for trades people. There is no shortage of trades workers. Therefore, there is no demand and no willingness to pay for more trades programs.

The emphasis on testing is because that is what society wants. Society sees a benefit to a better educated society. Honestly, whether your're a plumber or a doctor you should be able to read and write well. Those skills will benefit you for the rest of your life. Math skills have been linked with higher earing potential. There is plenty of reason to learn what is tested even if you aren't going to college.

What I dislike about your arguments is you want people to skip high school and go right to trades because they don't want to go to college. You don't think they need to learn English and math. My argument is that a high school diploma should be the starting point for either a career in the trades or going to college. Getting a high school diploma, certainly, will not hurt someone who wants to go into the trades and it just might help them somewhere in their life.

I think it's nice when schools can offer a few trades classes but I hesitate to start pulling kids out of high school and putting them into the trades. You never know what they may do in the future. I was a D student in high school. If they'd given me a tech track I would have taken it. I was an A student in college. I never would have gone to college if I'd taken a tech track. While I think kids should be able to explore options, I don't think we should close any doors when they are only 16.

No, I do not think kids are being scammed because they're asked to learn english in high school. I think being able to read and write well are valuable skills no matter what you decide to do for a living. No, I don't think they're being scammed because less money is spent on tech programs than college prep programs. This is simply supply responding to demand. The parents of the kids in my school want them prepared for college. It may turn out they don't go but that doesn't mean what they learned along the way was a waste. You have tunnel vision here. You appear to think that anything that doesn't directly apply to a trade is worthless to someone who ends up in a trade. That's not true.

If a student gets A's or B's on a college prep program, they're, probably, college material. Someone who isn't, is likely to get C's and D's (anyone can pass who puts in an ounce of effort the way our system is set up). These two sets of students, literally, have different diplomas because there is a mile between what they have learned. They have leveled themselves. Why do you want to throw out high school before they've self leveled?

And once again, creating tech programs DOES NOT create tech jobs. It just floods the market!!!! EVERYONE would have a job if simply getting the certificate or degree resulted in a job opening. It doesn't. As things are now, if we push tech programs, we'll just end up with a bunch of unemployed people with tech certificates. At least a college degree is somewhat adaptable. If you're trained to be a plumber, you have no hope of taking any other job. I have a degree in chemical engineering. There are many jobs I can do with that. A liberal arts college degree is more flexible than a trades certificate. So, yes, that's what gets pushed. If we had a shortage of trades workers. If there were trades jobs we could not fill. THEN we'd push trades. You have the cart before the horse. Creating tech programs will not create more tech jobs. You'll just have unemployed tech people complaining that someone sold them a worthless program.

The fact is, there aren't enough jobs to go around here because manufacturing has been leaving for two decades. We have no hope of filling that job hole. And we did this to ourselves. We demanded inexpensive goods and goods can be made cheaper in other countries. This mess is of our own doing. No matter what you do, you will have high unemployment here now. Manufacturing isn't coming back. Sadly, the best route may be to get the training you want and then see what country needs those skills.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-09-2011 at 03:26 AM..
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