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Old 09-12-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Rocking the 609
362 posts, read 875,648 times
Reputation: 174

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
How much further behind would they be if they had stopped taking high school classes in 9th grade and had been placed in a vo-tech pogram instead? You actually make one of my points and that is that a high school diploma is SOOOOO basic that anyone should be able to get one with minimal effort. That being the case, why would we excuse kids from getting one in favor of a voc-ed cert?

A high school diploma does not mean what it meant 50 years ago. Not even close. Today's high school diploma is closer to the 8th grade education my dad had. We've dummied down high school to the point the diploma has little meaning and we're arguing that we should let some kids do even less????

The fact is you can go on to a voc-ed program after finishing high school. Unfortunately, you are correct in your assessment that a high school diploma does not mean you're ready for college, which has me baffled because people are up in arms about high school being college prep. It's only college prep for the top students. For everyone else, it's just basics and many of them will need remedial classes in college if they go but think of where they'd be without even those basics.

I also agree with your assessment that the 19 adn 20 year olds in college are children. They're children because they've been coddled. Instead of someone telling them to knuckle down and do the VERY basic work it takes to graduate, they've had excuses made for them. IMO, excusing kids from a diploma in favor of voc-ed is just more excuses as to why our kids can't do even the basics. I fear this country has no hope.
I do have to agree with a lot of this. Going back to my high school in 1998 (which had a vo-tech program that kids could attend on the county level.) The requirements to actually GRADUATE were very very minimal.

This was the requirements then:
4 years of English
3 years of social studies (9th - 11th fulfilled this btw)
3 years of math (I think the bare minimum was two classes called "fundamentals of math" and a very intro algebra course)
3 years of science (this didn't require any academic course that had a lab attached and could be filled with earth science, basics of bio and basics of chem)
2 years of foreign language (mostly taken in 9th/10th grade so Spanish I and II would take care of this.)
A half year of health, half year of driver's ed and so many gym classes.

Generally, most students completed all the graduation requirements at the end of junior year. Which is why you'd see a lot of seniors taking multiple study halls a week and electives in addition to the one English class they needed to actually graduate.

I don't think anyone should have to take calculus to graduate high school, but those requirements above are severely minimal and the thought that a school would require less than THAT from a student makes me shudder.

Sure, there was college prep and AP (I took it myself) but it wasn't required and outside of a handful of really driven students a lot of the harder classes (AP Calculus, AP English, honors biology, etc) were pretty empty. In fact, it wasn't unheard of for some honors student to double up on English during junior year and graduate a year early. I should also state that because I took every AP offered (as well as a ton of science electives) that I DIDN'T need remedial classes in college and arrived there knowing how to write a paper, how to do basic math, for example. I do think there's something to be said for challenging the students who DO plan on going to college more because the bare requirement isn't enough for them but I don't think forcing everyone to pass some rigorous college prep for graduation is the way to do it.
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:49 PM
 
1,248 posts, read 1,834,445 times
Reputation: 1237
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
It's not just limited supply.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/bu...pagewanted=all

This new york times article says in greensboro, nc, entry level machining jobs pay $14-20 hour. I think its interesting, some think we're going to scar students for life if we send them in that direction.

I think its a sham because they are not letting kids get work experience and gain maturity.....then they can go back to college or upgrade their skills. There's this push to make everybody a round peg, and get them into algebra II, higher math, electives they don't need....and get them into this academic track.

-Another problem with this college for all mantra (and why it's a scam).....just because you hold a masters or phd....it doesn't really mean you're that smart. Thus the market doesn't pay much for some ph d's.

Look at the economic problems lately. A lot of supposedly "bright" people didn't see the housing crash, economic recession, downturn, etc. Look at the mess on wall st, all these ph d's and ivy league credentials. Just because you have a masters or ph d, it doesn't mean you have common sense, or you really know whats going on.

It depends on the field obviously. But in many cases, higher education becomes vary narrow, abstract and theoretical (with the accompanying low earning potential).

-Here in LA, the system is absolutely setting kids up to fail.

A Formula for Failure in L.A. Schools - latimes.com

44% of 48,000 9th graders flunked beginning algebra. Then they just keep trying to retake it. They should be going back to basic math, and mastering that. Not taking 6 algebra classes, and barely passing. Its completely crazy.
The problem with your paralogic is what you say yourself that intelligence is not always correlated with high pay. There have been geniuses beyond compare from Charles Pierce to William James Sidis who ended up as penniless pariahs and clueless gits who made fortunes off of inheritances, nepotism and blind luck. I suppose Snooki is smarter than Toni Morrison based on her earning more money for speaking engagements? Then, you go a step beyond that inanity and bring in the old common sense shield. The defense the ignorant and uneducated use to try to feel more intelligent than the learned and educated. Using the most potent definition, common sense is still ineffective in understanding, solving and dealing with problems that you have not or cannot experience personally. Common sense cannot solve or inform on issues of mathematics, astrophysics, hard sciences, languages, history, macroeconomics, etc. As for the economy being wrecked, do you think the sabotage that ruined the economy but saw all-time highs in Wall Street profits was a mistake? Someone can be educated, smart and in a powerful position but still be as crooked as a barrel of snakes. Corruption and cupidity led to the meltdown, not education and intelligence.
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower7 View Post
I do have to agree with a lot of this. Going back to my high school in 1998 (which had a vo-tech program that kids could attend on the county level.) The requirements to actually GRADUATE were very very minimal.

This was the requirements then:
4 years of English
3 years of social studies (9th - 11th fulfilled this btw)
3 years of math (I think the bare minimum was two classes called "fundamentals of math" and a very intro algebra course)
3 years of science (this didn't require any academic course that had a lab attached and could be filled with earth science, basics of bio and basics of chem)
2 years of foreign language (mostly taken in 9th/10th grade so Spanish I and II would take care of this.)
A half year of health, half year of driver's ed and so many gym classes.

Generally, most students completed all the graduation requirements at the end of junior year. Which is why you'd see a lot of seniors taking multiple study halls a week and electives in addition to the one English class they needed to actually graduate.

I don't think anyone should have to take calculus to graduate high school, but those requirements above are severely minimal and the thought that a school would require less than THAT from a student makes me shudder.

Sure, there was college prep and AP (I took it myself) but it wasn't required and outside of a handful of really driven students a lot of the harder classes (AP Calculus, AP English, honors biology, etc) were pretty empty. In fact, it wasn't unheard of for some honors student to double up on English during junior year and graduate a year early. I should also state that because I took every AP offered (as well as a ton of science electives) that I DIDN'T need remedial classes in college and arrived there knowing how to write a paper, how to do basic math, for example. I do think there's something to be said for challenging the students who DO plan on going to college more because the bare requirement isn't enough for them but I don't think forcing everyone to pass some rigorous college prep for graduation is the way to do it.
It makes me shudder too. This entire thread is about how we should make it even EASIER for kids. I'm against that. I don't think it's too much to ask that kids complete minimal high school studies before going off to tech school. I really do prefer that my plumber can read....
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post
Maybe the confusion comes because apprenticeships usually pay?
I think the confusion is that people don't know what goes into getting an electrician/plumber licesnse. They think you can graduate from high school with a couple of courses and say you're a skilled laborer ready to make the big bucks.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:15 PM
 
15,757 posts, read 13,184,034 times
Reputation: 19646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
We don't have to pass state exams to graduate. Isn't there an option for taking a lower diploma and skipping the exams?? If the state exams are geared towards the college bound, then your diploma is geared towards the college bound. Here it may or may not be geared towards the college bound. It depends on what the individual child took for classes. We have kids graduate with nothing more than the basics and kids who have 16 college credits under their belt. We couldn't do that if they all had to pass an exam geared towards the college bound to graduate.

Sorry, sometimes I forget that the definition of high school graduate varies widely from state to state. THAT shouldn't be because we are becomming a transient society.
Yup its geared towards the college bound.

They were/are thinking of an end of year chem exam for ALL students who take any kind of chem class but one of the teachers in my district was on the committee to make the exam. She said there was no way someone who only took chemcom (I think you mentioned that class?) could pass this exam the way it was being written.

They have had the EOC exam in bio for a few years but could never gt the scores to match up even with other graders so they never counted. I hope they continue to push back making these science exams mandatory to graduate. If they write an exam a chemcom kid could pass my kids may not be able to since we do not cover the breadth of subjects they do.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:19 PM
 
15,757 posts, read 13,184,034 times
Reputation: 19646
Quote:
Originally Posted by 512ATX View Post
This makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

It's already understood that you don't send a kid to school with the flu or chicken pox., BUT when the kid works hard to BE THERE, not sick of course, they SHOULD be rewarded.

It's not my fault if parents drop the ball on keeping their kids healthy. If they stopped feeding them McDonald's and watch TV til midnight, maybe their kids wouldn't get sick all the time and be at school, where they SHOULD be.
Maybe you are unaware but VIRUSES cause the chicken pox and the flu. Even people who eat perfectly balanced diets and are otherwise healthy still get viruses.

Perfect attendance is a silly and meaningless standard. Being in school is its own reward since the more you are there, the more your learn and so on. We have to get over this silly notions of what is meaningful and what is not.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:24 PM
 
686 posts, read 924,289 times
Reputation: 283
The reason kids 'fail' is simply that most people are stupid. Like 90% of the public are bordering on the dim. Maybe in America it's 95%, but it's 90% everywhere. That's why democracy is stupid.

You have idiots who cant locate countries on a map hating people from the entire region, you have people with no higher learning falling prey to stupid political stunts.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I think the confusion is that people don't know what goes into getting an electrician/plumber licesnse. They think you can graduate from high school with a couple of courses and say you're a skilled laborer ready to make the big bucks.
I have the same suspician. Because it takes years to get an electrician/plumbers license is all the more reason to get a high school diploma first, IMO. I can see offering a few electives but no one is leaving high school and walking into a $100/hr job as a plumber.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,717,492 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Yup its geared towards the college bound.

They were/are thinking of an end of year chem exam for ALL students who take any kind of chem class but one of the teachers in my district was on the committee to make the exam. She said there was no way someone who only took chemcom (I think you mentioned that class?) could pass this exam the way it was being written.

They have had the EOC exam in bio for a few years but could never gt the scores to match up even with other graders so they never counted. I hope they continue to push back making these science exams mandatory to graduate. If they write an exam a chemcom kid could pass my kids may not be able to since we do not cover the breadth of subjects they do.
THAT I disagree with. I can see everyone taking chemistry but not college prep chemistry. There is value in learning about the chemical nature of the world even at a lower level AND studies have shown that kids who take chemcom like classes actually do pretty good if they do go on to college chemistry. Not as well as the kids who took college prep chemistry but given that it is the stronger students who do (so you're comparing them to stronger students), they're holding their own.

Personally, I love teaching the lower level chemistry course(I hate calling it that because it's not chemistry lite, it's really chemistry, math lite. We do skip a couple of the tougher college prep topics but add in others I never get to in my college prep classes becasue we run out of time.). I can concentrate on ideas instead of coaxing students through math problems. I also find that the students in this level class like the labs more. The college prep crowd is hard to impress. They're just crunching out reports to get an A. I swear the "lower" kids get more out of the class. I know they learn more. In part because they come in knowing so much less but in part because they accept guidance more readily. They're not know it alls....yet...
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,904 posts, read 18,458,797 times
Reputation: 13735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
What is the next thing that we need to move on to???...


...If you know what the next thing is that we should be preparing our kids to do, please share...


...Feel free to add what you think Americans need to do to salvage our economy....
I know what we should be doing. Science, space exploration, computer science, philosophy, art, pushing out instead of accepting boundaries and questioning instead of accepting what a supposed "authority" tells us is what... and generally reaching for a higher perspective in existence. Our civilization needs a giant paradigm shift from the ultimate goal of getting as fat and rich as possible to getting as intelligent and wise as possible.

But judging by where we're actually going, I'd recommend urban survival skills, combat tactics and firearms training.
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