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Old 09-18-2011, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
Reputation: 14503

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanwoman54 View Post
Originally Posted by MustangEater82
Actually, on CBS nightly news they do segments on the problems of finding skilled workers. How certain companies are struggling to find people.


I have seen companies struggle with this, including my own.

We need to work on it, there is no reason we cannot get back into this.




I have seen those reports too. The one report I saw was for factory jobs, but the owner couldn't find anyone with the math skills needed to run the equipment! And that is one area where we are lacking, and I really do not know why when most states reqire 3 years of math. OH, yes I do know why, as most kids do not see the RELEVANCE in taking those upper classes seriously or remembering what they learned! But too, I really feel that the way most of our states teach math is behind what other countries are doing; it is almost like they are MAKING our children hate it.
I used to have a link to a data table (if anyone has one that still works, please PM me, thanks) that showed lifetime income plotted against years of math completed in school. Math is important.

I don't know why our kids do so poorly in math or why they hate it so much. In other countries, math is considered easy and their kids do much better with it. Our kids only seem to want to memorize what they need for the next test and then to forget it. I'm convinced this has to do with expectations. In my current district, kids are expected to do well and they do. I don't see 1/10th the math issues I saw in my old school. Teacher quality isn't the issue. Expectations are.

I swear we're pushing a rope with most of our kids. All they want is the checkmark/grade and to move on. This isn't too bad in my current district but it was horrible in my last district. What's the difference? Kids are held accountable in this district. Mom and dad expect success and the kids know it. (Actually, IMO, mom and dad often go a little overboard in this district. I have kids who sweat bullets if they're getting a B and a C might as well be a failing grade).

Edited to add: I do realize that genetics plays some part in this. Many of my kids have successful parents and success often breeds success. However, I see the attitude they carry spilling over onto the kids whose demographic isn't too far from that of my old school. The idea that school is important seems to be contagious. I'm certain it starts at home but I'm equally certain that by high school, peers are playing an even bigger part than home. Most of my kids want to go to college. They know they need to have good grades to go to college. So getting good grades is what students strive for. I wish it was more about learning and less about the grade but, at least, I have some power in my own classroom.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-18-2011 at 07:05 AM..

 
Old 09-18-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,383 posts, read 6,856,960 times
Reputation: 1434
I mean look at "simple/complex" math skills. It is needed everywhere. Think of a carpenter building a staircase using trig. Sheet metal guy calculating bend radiuses, and building complex shapes. Simple electricity, Hell most of the country think electrons flow positive to negative. Just understanding the 4 stroke engine.

The job they brought up was what I believe a cnc programmer. Basically, take complex measurements, calculate what needs to be done to adjust a machine to get your results, and input the new stuff into a database style program and hit a button.

That is a simple job, it definitely has its complex parts. Not just anyone can do it with some training. But someone that can work a decently complex computer system, use precision measuring tools, and understand trig should be able to do it.

In theory a HS grad should be able to handle it. Yet you see people come out they have a hard time measuring and realizing 1/8th is the same as .125. They have a hard time taking a ruler measuring 2 spots, then dividing those 2 spots into 3 equal seperate pieces in between.

Stuff taught in a woodshop class.

Or an automotive class which goes through the basic functions of "complex" machinery like a car. Get them to use critical thinking to understand a system, what is good, what is bad, why is it that way. Even teach them basic troubleshooting which is used EVERYWHERE blue and white collared jobs. Define what is right, what is wrong, why is it wrong, how can it be fixed.

Work basic electricity, and metallurgy in there, just the basics ferrous and non-ferrous metals, alloys....

Basic accounting, investing, taxes. I have met people in school who have have passed several calc classes, yet I have had to explain loans, leases, and rates, and if they are getting a deal on a car or not.




I have worked with highschool kids that don't care, Hell even adults that don't care. I know a lot of this will be shunned off as "i don't need to know this". I always just common reasoning to get through.

Don't want to know the basics of a car? What are you going to do when your car breaks and a mechanic says it needs new blinked fluid it will cost $1k.

Don't want to understand loans, walk them through buying a car or house and how 1% interest rate will cost you. Or an extra $50 a month and show how they will get ripped off.

Show them how putting a few bucks a month in a retirement fund from 18 on will make them a millionaire when they retire.


All these things a lot of times are passed up and considered "lesser" classes and not needed for college. So its all passed up.

Has anyone been to a community college and seen the aimlessness walking around there? Not a student because they work retail, don't have a real job because I am a "student". Get in debt because I don't understand loans, after 4 years have a 2 year degree that for the most part is useless.

It's sickening how many able bodied workers are like this racking up debt.



Yet we can't find people to work skilled jobs. Because we don't have enough people to have the basic skills needed to understand trig, fractions, and something no more complex then Excel and Access, with a touch of understanding a "complex system" of what happens in a car when you turn a key, to it being started.


I just think our system and goals should be revamped. What we need and don't need.


Sent from my autocorrect butchering device.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,383 posts, read 6,856,960 times
Reputation: 1434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I used to have a link to a data table (if anyone has one that still works, please PM me, thanks) that showed lifetime income plotted against years of math completed in school. Math is important.

I don't know why our kids do so poorly in math or why they hate it so much. In other countries, math is considered easy and their kids do much better with it. Our kids only seem to want to memorize what they need for the next test and then to forget it. I'm convinced this has to do with expectations. In my current district, kids are expected to do well and they do. I don't see 1/10th the math issues I saw in my old school. Teacher quality isn't the issue. Expectations are.

I swear we're pushing a rope with most of our kids. All they want is the checkmark/grade and to move on. This isn't too bad in my current district but it was horrible in my last district. What's the difference? Kids are held accountable in this district. Mom and dad expect success and the kids know it. (Actually, IMO, mom and dad often go a little overboard in this district. I have kids who sweat bullets if they're getting a B and a C might as well be a failing grade).

Edited to add: I do realize that genetics plays some part in this. Many of my kids have successful parents and success often breeds success. However, I see the attitude they carry spilling over onto the kids whose demographic isn't too far from that of my old school. The idea that school is important seems to be contagious. I'm certain it starts at home but I'm equally certain that by high school, peers are playing an even bigger part than home. Most of my kids want to go to college. They know they need to have good grades to go to college. So getting good grades is what students strive for. I wish it was more about learning and less about the grade but, at least, I have some power in my own classroom.
I feel that is a huge issue. I used to be a half assed student and even flunked out of a college... Had a life moment went back wanting to learn, and pulled amazing grades and learned a lot and have become pretty successful.

Everything in highscool was need to get to college get to college then what?

Sent from my autocorrect butchering device.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangEater82 View Post
I feel that is a huge issue. I used to be a half assed student and even flunked out of a college... Had a life moment went back wanting to learn, and pulled amazing grades and learned a lot and have become pretty successful.

Everything in highscool was need to get to college get to college then what?

Sent from my autocorrect butchering device.
Whatever you make it. You're stuck on the only purpose for education being getting and retaining a job. How about being well rounded enough to be adaptable in a work force that will demand change? I've read that today's graduates can expect to have 13 different jobs in their lifetime. Who knows what they may need for each of them but if they haven't learned how to learn along the way....Lord help them.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-18-2011 at 08:15 AM..
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:10 AM
 
15,795 posts, read 13,215,809 times
Reputation: 19688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Because of events like Columbine, we are not allowed to just take their cell phones away. So, cellphone use under the table becomes one more thing we need to try and police during class. I don't allow cell phone use but I only catch the obvious ones because I get into what I'm teaching. We need to put a para in every room to take cell phones (we can take them if we see them out during class), wake kids up, take notes they pass, stop conversations, etc, etc, etc.... Unfortunately, high school is not like college where it's your problem if you didn't pay attention. Parents try to make it my problem to make their child pay attention and that cuts into teaching time which lowers the quality of education...
I lobbied for and got our school to change the policy that students couldn't have phones on them, only in their lockers.

That means I now REQUIRE my students to have their phones on their desks and turned to silent with vibrate off. It has really cut down on texting because I can see them reach for their phones and cuts back on cheating during tests.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I lobbied for and got our school to change the policy that students couldn't have phones on them, only in their lockers.

That means I now REQUIRE my students to have their phones on their desks and turned to silent with vibrate off. It has really cut down on texting because I can see them reach for their phones and cuts back on cheating during tests.
I have mine put their phones on their desk during tests but some will "claim" they don't have their phone with them. Most do it and I know which ones to watch closest during the test.

What do you do if a student claims they don't have their phone on them? Like THAT ever happens....
 
Old 09-18-2011, 08:36 AM
 
15,795 posts, read 13,215,809 times
Reputation: 19688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I have mine put their phones on their desk during tests but some will "claim" they don't have their phone with them. Most do it and I know which ones to watch closest during the test.

What do you do if a student claims they don't have their phone on them? Like THAT ever happens....
I tell them to go get it out of their locker, or I call it. Our school requires kids to register there number if they want to bring their phone to school. I had to call a phone once already before the lab safety exam. When we all could hear it ring in his pocket he said he forgot he had it on him. I still sent him to the office after the exam. Word has gotten out that there is a true unified front on this issue now.

What I like about the new policy is how clearly the consequences are spelled out. If they break any of the rules about their phones, they are not allowed to have their phone outside of their lockers at any point for the rest of the year and if they violate that one, they can end up suspended. Thursday a kid had ISS for violating it. At my school that should be enough to keep the kids in line.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 09:41 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,719,627 times
Reputation: 2606
Default Teachers continue to do poor job

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
SAT Scores Decline as More Students Take Test - Bloomberg

This article states "The average reading score of 497 marked the lowest since data became available in 1972, according to a report released today by the College Board, which administers the exam".
The teaching establishment has had it's own way too long, and the evidence that their way, is the wrong way is overwhelming.
It is time to go to a voucher system and bring some competition to education.


Silliest premise I've seen in awhile.

Teachers cannot make dumb people smart. Nor can they make ugly people attractive. Or short people tall. Sometimes genetics trumps all.

Education doesn't work for everyone. A brief browse through the CD forums will confirm this. There are dumb individuals among us. There always have been. Probably always will be. Pushing them through the education system, trying to get them to learn things they're incapable of grasping is counterproductive. But it's so much cheaper to have a "one size fits all" education system than one that works.

And blaming teachers is so much easier than actually thinking the problem through.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 11:43 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,719,627 times
Reputation: 2606
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRunner View Post
The article is about student test scores. I didn't see anything about teachers getting low test scores. Maybe students have had it too easy for so long and we need to have a crack down with a stricter discipline policy in place. Maybe more drastic measures for students not making the cut.

I've worked in districts where state assessment scores were in the 40-60% passing rate and my current district where it averages about 95-97%. The teachers are the same, in fact, I thought the ones in the higher district were actually not quite as good as my old school. The ones who are different are the students. The scores for my students shot up 20% just switching to a higher income district with more white people. Am I a better teacher now?

Exactly...

All of the who-knows-how-many billions of dollars governments at all levels have wasted on silly standardized testing has only revealed one thing:

every school performs as well as the demographic it serves.

And we all knew that BEFORE all those billions were spent on testing.
 
Old 09-18-2011, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,758,930 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
Exactly...

All of the who-knows-how-many billions of dollars governments at all levels have wasted on silly standardized testing has only revealed one thing:

every school performs as well as the demographic it serves.

And we all knew that BEFORE all those billions were spent on testing.
Yup. Just like the government to spend billions to learn what we could have told them in the first place.
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