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Old 09-18-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Middle America
35,827 posts, read 39,487,101 times
Reputation: 48650

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It's so shocking that governmental entities are so out of touch regarding education...I mean, every one of the candidates we elect really prioritizes education as one of their main platforms and areas of interest...they clearly see the importance of having a strong public educational system...

..oh, wait. That's not right.

 
Old 09-18-2011, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Middle America
35,827 posts, read 39,487,101 times
Reputation: 48650
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
Silliest premise I've seen in awhile.

Teachers cannot make dumb people smart. Nor can they make ugly people attractive. Or short people tall. Sometimes genetics trumps all.

Education doesn't work for everyone.
Not to quibble, but, really, education CAN work for everyone. True education, that is. It depends on how one is defining "education," and "learning."

I work with lots of children that others have labeled ineducable and removed from their school systems because they do not possess the capabilities to teach them...severely developmentally disabled kids, ones with psych disorders, neurological disorders, etc., and I have hard data that shows the learning taking place for each and every one of them. They learn at their own pace, they learn at their own level, but they are capable of learning. Even the lowest functioning kids show evidence of learning.

The way those who regulate public education in our country, however, have a very specific idea of what learning is, and by and large, for it to count, it has to be measurable by a timed multiple choice test. Everyone does NOT have the capabilities to do well at that. It's not about being dumb or not dumb. It's about using the abilities you do have.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 07:47 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,129,155 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
This one piece shows how disingenuous your argument is. If you don't get your job done, your boss will fire you and find somebody who will. That is powerful motivation for an employee. Schools can't fire kids and hire ones that are more skilled and motivated.

There's plenty of blame for the state of education. To pin it all on teachers is ridiculous. Do you give teachers all the credit for kids that do well?
It is not the kids who need to be fired, they are the customers....it is the teachers.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 08:51 AM
 
11,151 posts, read 13,814,909 times
Reputation: 18791
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It is not the kids who need to be fired, they are the customers....it is the teachers.
I agree. Let's fire all the teachers and make parents responsible for home schooling their own kids. (Still requiring, of course, that all students must take and pass the standardized tests mandated by NCLB.)

There -- problem solved!
 
Old 09-19-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,720,073 times
Reputation: 2606
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It is not the kids who need to be fired, they are the customers....it is the teachers.

The kids are NOT customers. They're the workers. Or, at least, they're supposed to be. The tax-paying public is the customer. And parents who complain loud and long about their kids' failure to perform like to place the blame on the "system."
 
Old 09-19-2011, 09:05 AM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,245,747 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It is not the kids who need to be fired, they are the customers....it is the teachers.
The kids don't pay a cent. How are they "customers"?
 
Old 09-19-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,388 posts, read 8,108,502 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
The kids are NOT customers. They're the workers. Or, at least, they're supposed to be. The tax-paying public is the customer. And parents who complain loud and long about their kids' failure to perform like to place the blame on the "system."

It's true that the taxpayers are the customers. But I don't think the kids are the workers. They are the raw material that is transformed into a product. Teachers are the workers and they fashion a product based on the material they have to work with.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,763,789 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoro View Post
It's true that the taxpayers are the customers. But I don't think the kids are the workers. They are the raw material that is transformed into a product. Teachers are the workers and they fashion a product based on the material they have to work with.
I agree. But, unlike industry, we can't reject subpar raw materials. We have to "use" (since you use raw materials) everything that is delievered to us. We don't get to order what we want or turn away what we don't want to work with. Teaching just doesn't compare to industry.

The students, however, are like workers in that they need to work to learn but they are also the rar material. We have a living raw material with a mind of its own. Unlike industry, we can't send those who refuse to work home. We can't dock their pay either. Education is a horse of a different color.

Teachers are workers but unlike workers in industry, they cannot increase revenues by being good at what they do and, thereby, make themselves more valuable to the system. The system gets the same $$ no matter how good the teacher is so there is no incentive to pay better teachers more or even to recruit them. Also, the definition of a good teacher is subjective. It can be one thing one year and another the next. Heck it can be one thing at one school and another at the next.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,415 posts, read 9,580,635 times
Reputation: 8587
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It is not the kids who need to be fired, they are the customers....it is the teachers.
Your density over this issue appears too powerful for further discussion.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 05:39 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,474,786 times
Reputation: 10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Not to quibble, but, really, education CAN work for everyone. True education, that is. It depends on how one is defining "education," and "learning."

I work with lots of children that others have labeled ineducable and removed from their school systems because they do not possess the capabilities to teach them...severely developmentally disabled kids, ones with psych disorders, neurological disorders, etc., and I have hard data that shows the learning taking place for each and every one of them. They learn at their own pace, they learn at their own level, but they are capable of learning. Even the lowest functioning kids show evidence of learning.

The way those who regulate public education in our country, however, have a very specific idea of what learning is, and by and large, for it to count, it has to be measurable by a timed multiple choice test. Everyone does NOT have the capabilities to do well at that. It's not about being dumb or not dumb. It's about using the abilities you do have.
This is the BIGGEST problem with the school system these days. The special ed budgets are draining the budgets of the districts and since you can't touch that money, the rest of the school suffers. These programs need to be removed from the schools and placed under the auspices of social services or the funding for these programs needs to come from other sources. Special ed budgets take up 1/2-3/4th of most school budgets around the nation, while servicing less than 10% of the student population. These programs were supposed to be 100% funded by the federal government and that has never happened--yet you can't touch this funding due to federal mandates...

I was just talking to a woman who's son has special needs. The district has him being picked up by a regular bus, at the end of his driveway, vs a special ed bus. The woman was all up in arms because she thought her special needs son would get picked on by the "regular" kids so she fought the school and he now has his own bus . This is now costing that district and extra $50,000/year--for ONE kid .
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