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Old 09-20-2011, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Charlotte county, Florida
4,102 posts, read 4,992,344 times
Reputation: 11837

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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoro View Post
It's true that the taxpayers are the customers. But I don't think the kids are the workers. They are the raw material that is transformed into a product. Teachers are the workers and they fashion a product based on the material they have to work with.
IMO that would make teachers Artists.

 
Old 09-20-2011, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
1,403 posts, read 2,072,970 times
Reputation: 1322
Well lets blame parents too not just the teachers. Parents can do a lot to help their children. Parents shouldnt solely rely on the teachers to help. Well the gov't apparently doesnt give a Moderator cut: language about education in this country and Jimhcom is right on the money!!

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 09-20-2011 at 07:33 AM.. Reason: Please use appropriate language
 
Old 09-20-2011, 07:08 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,388 posts, read 8,096,824 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caligula1 View Post
IMO that would make teachers Artists.

Teaching IS a performing art.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 07:23 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,118,692 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
Silliest premise I've seen in awhile.

Teachers cannot make dumb people smart. Nor can they make ugly people attractive. Or short people tall. Sometimes genetics trumps all.

Education doesn't work for everyone. A brief browse through the CD forums will confirm this. There are dumb individuals among us. There always have been. Probably always will be. Pushing them through the education system, trying to get them to learn things they're incapable of grasping is counterproductive. But it's so much cheaper to have a "one size fits all" education system than one that works.

And blaming teachers is so much easier than actually thinking the problem through.
This is with out a doubt the dumbest statement I have ever seen in print.
Education absolutely works for everyone who is able to set foot in a classroom.
Anyone who thinks there is such a thing a un-teachable person has no business in the education field.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 07:30 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,118,692 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
The kids don't pay a cent. How are they "customers"?
So by your logic, if you pay for your kidís meal at a restaurant, they are not a customer? I suppose when a retired person goes to the doctor they are not the patient because the taxpayer is footing the bill. Who is paying for the child to be in school is irrelevant, the child is still who you are providing the service for. That makes them the customer.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 08:10 AM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,241,231 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
So by your logic, if you pay for your kidís meal at a restaurant, they are not a customer? I suppose when a retired person goes to the doctor they are not the patient because the taxpayer is footing the bill. Who is paying for the child to be in school is irrelevant, the child is still who you are providing the service for. That makes them the customer.
The retired person has already contributed for the entirety of his/her working career. How is that in any way comparable to a kid?
 
Old 09-20-2011, 09:11 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,713,187 times
Reputation: 2606
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
This is with out a doubt the dumbest statement I have ever seen in print.
Perhaps you should read more.

Quote:
Education absolutely works for everyone who is able to set foot in a classroom.
So, your original post about teachers doing a lousy job is false, then. Teachers teach to their entire classroom.

Quote:
Anyone who thinks there is such a thing a un-teachable person has no business in the education field.
You're moving the goal posts.

Your original premise was, "there are more marginal students taking college entrance exams, therefore, teachers are doing a lousy job."
 
Old 09-20-2011, 10:31 AM
 
613 posts, read 807,510 times
Reputation: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
Moreover, the parents who want their children to learn to read and to read well--and who blame teachers when they don't--are the same parents who are not avid readers themselves or keep a library in their homes.
Untrue. Not only am I an avid reader, I am a voracious reader. My home is overflowing with books, and not just novels. My children have been introduced to books and reading since before they could sit up on their own.

I HAVE provided the perfect environment to foster any child's love of reading. That is MY job and I have done it to a 'T'.

The school's job is to TEACH my children to read. The school is supposed to be the experts on HOW to teach kids to read, and IMO, at least in our school district, they have failed miserably. In fact, I blame the school for instilling a hatred of reading, and personally I feel it all starts with the dreaded READING LOG and Responses.

I dare any adult who loves to read to complete a log and write a response such as "my favorite character is (. ) because..... After reading and see how enjoyable it is then. Ugh!!!!!!
 
Old 09-20-2011, 10:46 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,118,692 times
Reputation: 5171
As has been stated several times in this thread, the schools are clearly failing to produce graduates that are capable of fulfilling the requirements employers require.
The teachers clearly do not want to accept responsibility for their failures, and would prefer to blame parents, students, and any one else besides themselves for these failures.
I think what we really need, is to have oversight committees in each school district made up of parents and members of the business community who monitor teacher performance and have the power to terminate teachers and administrators who fail to perform. I believe this is the only way to improve classroom performance and to assess what the real problems are in the classroom. Schools need to be accountable to parents and to the community they serve.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 10:47 AM
 
5,605 posts, read 4,158,119 times
Reputation: 12338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You need to learn some statistics. Back when I took state tests, only about the top 1/3 of students took the test. Today everyone takes the test so we cannot compare to years past. You have to compare apples to apples. When the lower segment that never used to take the test is included, (these would be the traditionally non college bound) you can expect scores to go down. And yes, there is a lower segment just like there is an upper segment. There are whole groups of kids who do well on tests and whole groups of kids who do poorly.

No, teachers don't take responsibility for students failing because we don't make them fail. I failed seven students last year and none of their failures are my fault. I didn't make them fail. Their lack of effort made them fail. I cannot follow them home and make them do their homework. I cannot make sure they get to bed at a decent hour. I cannot make them show up to class and I cannot ask the rest of the class to sit and wait while I remediate them because of their lack of effort. I am available after school for tutoring but these kids never showed up. Instead, I tutored their classmates who were borderline A students who wanted that A.

Please tell me how it's my fault when a student fails because they refused to do the work. I don't believe it is. My job is to TEACH and I did my job. Just ask the 139 students who passed my class. Several of them will tell you they passed because of me (but they really did it themselves). They put in the effort and succeeded.

The only way failure is my fault is if I don't teach. I do. The stage is set for a student to fail or succeed long before they ever set foot in my class. Parents can make kids so homework and study. They have the power to do things like ground them and take away phones and ipods and cars. I just assign homework and grade it. If they aren't motivated by grades, I have no power at all to influence what they do.

And if you think I don't do my job, how's this? I taught for two years at a charter school. During my two years, passing scores on the science portion of the state tests were the highest they'd ever been. Those scores dropped right back to where they were before I came after I left. I do my job. I teach. Unfortunately, some of my students don't do their job and that is to learn.

The problem with US education is failure of our students to take responsibility for their own educations. They're waiting for someone else to do it for them. If you want me to do it for them, I can but you'll need to make my classes a lot smaller than they are and you'll have to give me the power to turn off their cell phones and cable. Then I'll follow around a handful of students and make sure they do everything and turn of their phone and internet when they don't. I have 150 students. My job is to teach them. Their job is to learn. I can't do their job for them any more than they can do my job for me.

Edited to add: Not that I wouldn't change education if I could. I'd structure it more like asian models where topics are taught in depth before you move on and fewer topics are taught per year (mastery learning). I would stop passing kids just to pass them. If they can't do the work, they don't pass. I would make the school year longer too. I think our kids lose too much in the long summer off.

Teahcers teach. Unfortuatelyl, our kids come to us on all different levels with different support systems in place. The ones who have been taught, who have support systems at home are going to do better than the ones who can't read and don't have a support system at home. Even the best teacher can't bridge that divide.
Yes, this exactly!
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