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Old 09-23-2011, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Have you ever used Google Documents? There is a way to create online forms that you could have your students fill out in class. There is a timestamp that appears on the spreadsheet with the data. I'll get you more information later.

The reset of participation points to a D each term is the key for the do-nothing students who want good grades. If they want an A, they have to earn it. The D won't keep them from passing, but it will hurt their overall GPA. Works like a dream.
No I have not. I'd appreciate the information. Thanks.

How do you reset a participation grade to a D? Do you have a grade in the system with, say, 100 points posible and start everyone at 60? Parents would crucify me if I tried that. They check grades daily if not more frequently.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No I have not. I'd appreciate the information. Thanks.

How do you reset a participation grade to a D? Do you have a grade in the system with, say, 100 points posible and start everyone at 60? Parents would crucify me if I tried that. They check grades daily if not more frequently.
http://docs.google.com

I do restart everyone at a 60 every term for participation. I update the grade at midterm, which is now. To be on track for an A by the end of the term, they should have earned about 15 points by now, or about 3 points a week. I gave participation points for going to the computer lab--2 points per day. I also give points for turning in their daily journal page at the end of the term--1 point per day. Participation is only 20 percent of their grade, so the difference between the 60 and a 100 is not really very much. What the parents and students both like is that all daily assignments, quizzes, and homework, also start at a 60 for a valid attempt, even if they miss every item. That's another 20 percent. The catch is that then they have to pass their tests, which are 60 percent. And I make my tests extremely thorough.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:50 PM
 
553 posts, read 872,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post

We should get rid of the “No child left behind” policy and thinking. We want our kids to reach for the moon and not be held back by others.
I agree. There should be classes and schools for "special children", that have NOT asked for any special accommodations. I think parents and children that are prepared to adapt without any extra aids and work harder deserve that. I want my children to attend a school where teachers are concentrated on teaching. My children have some attention deficiency, but they compensate it by studying harder. I am upset that teachers are overwelmed with all this routine accomodating speical needs for 20 children in the class out of 30. I just want the teacher to teach.
It is a pity that when nobody is left behind everybody is just not going anywhere.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Define better educational software? More interesting? More like video games? More entertaining? You keep saying education will be better if we teach with software but you have yet to spell out the benefits! Exactly what do you think will improve when we use computers to teach instead of teachers (And you don't need teachers if computers do the teaching. That would be redundant and costly because now you'll be paying for two systems.) I shudder to think what this world will be like if we raise kids who have been conditioned to think the only things worth learning are the ones that are made to be exciting and game like.... I thank God no one tried to teach me with software. I didn't grow up thinking that they owed it to me to make education fun and exciting. I learned the value of learning for learning's sake. Sadly, I'm probably one of the last...

Sorry, but most people do not find work exciting or entertaining. You're lucky if you do. Most of my students will find some job satisfaction because I'm teaching the top. In my old school, most of the kids were headed, if they were lucky, for a job that paid the bills. Kids today do not have the work ethic of yesteryear. They don't take pride in work like their parents and grand parents. It's a means to an end.

So, how do you think edcuational software will prepare kids better for life, higher education and the work force? What's the gain here? I don't see any. Even the upper kids who will do well under this system won't get the education they are getting now. You don't believe it but I know that kids learn from each other and from hearing each other's questions answered. A computer can't tell by the look on a child's face that they are not getting it or that they are bored with the material.

I'm a former engineer and I consider computers tools. Some tools are better than others. I love my smart board. I love that I can record the examples I do in class and students can play them back later. I love being able to walk around the room while writing on the board. I think being able to walk around the classroom and not having to face the board to write improve my teaching. I like being able to use clickers to assess whether kids are getting the material. Sure, you can do chemistry labs on line with no set up, tear down or chemical waste to dispose of but I think you lose something in the process. I do like the idea of online testing. We had it at my old school but not my current school. The instant feedback was good for the students but I wrote the tests.
You keep saying all or nothing. What happened to compromise? Computers are not the end of the world - they are the next logical progression (but not without teachers). With any totally open educational system; you could be working with older adults that wanted to fill in the gaps.

I keep saying to look at our debt. Look at the tax system. Look at the state of the economy. Look at how we rank educationally compared to the other world leaders. We are poised for change - we cannot continue the way we are going.

As far as improving the existing programs - it will happen. The technology is approaching that of the human brain. Someday computers could possible see if the child is bored? It isnít here now - but you know itís coming. We already have facial recognition software.

What is wrong with exciting and entertaining? Isnít better to capture the attention of a child - that would otherwise slip through the cracks? Are computer programs only educational if they are boring?
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,131 posts, read 10,568,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dressy View Post
I agree. There should be classes and schools for "special children", that have NOT asked for any special accommodations. I think parents and children that are prepared to adapt without any extra aids and work harder deserve that. I want my children to attend a school where teachers are concentrated on teaching. My children have some attention deficiency, but they compensate it by studying harder. I am upset that teachers are overwelmed with all this routine accomodating speical needs for 20 children in the class out of 30. I just want the teacher to teach.
It is a pity that when nobody is left behind everybody is just not going anywhere.
The concept was faulty thinking in the first place. To me, NCLB is evolution stuck in reverse. There will always be ďAlphasĒ - maybe not like in the SCI-FI program; but kids that can and will excel. There will also be kids that need extra attention or will never understand and some that will be sidetracked by all the evils in our world.

I do understand that we donít want to leave any child behind - if we can get them on the right track. If they distract the others from learning or hold others back - then we have failed. Some children just learn at a slower pace or only when they are ready to learn. That would be the advantage of my original post. Anybody, at any time, could learn.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
The concept was faulty thinking in the first place. To me, NCLB is evolution stuck in reverse. There will always be “Alphas” - maybe not like in the SCI-FI program; but kids that can and will excel. There will also be kids that need extra attention or will never understand and some that will be sidetracked by all the evils in our world.

I do understand that we don’t want to leave any child behind - if we can get them on the right track. If they distract the others from learning or hold others back - then we have failed. Some children just learn at a slower pace or only when they are ready to learn. That would be the advantage of my original post. Anybody, at any time, could learn.
But you are MISSING the major disadvantate of cyber learning. Kids could go as SLOW as they want not necessarily as slow as they NEED. There's a difference. Some kids learn slowly because they are unmotivated and lazy NOT because they just can't learn that fast. The error in your thinking is that kids WILL learn as fast as they can. They won't, any more than workers will all work as fast as they can. With workers, you have the threat of firing them. What power do we have with kids?

Cyber learning will result in higher failure rates because of failure to complete the program. For higher level students, they won't learn as much as they would have sitting in a class because they will not be involved in the discussion with peers and teachers that is intrinsic to teaching in a class of humans. I swear, my kids learn more when I answer questions than they do from the lecture. They seem to pay much more attention to questions from their peers and, if you know anything about adolescent development, that makes sense because their peers opinions matter to them.

As I've mentioned before, I know a teacher who supervised 53 kids in a cyber class this past year. The number 1 problem was keeping the kids on pace to finish the bulk of the program. They dragged their feet...they surfed the web...they emailed...talked...anything but what they were supposed to be doing. By your logic, they were just not ready. So, what do we do with these kids while we wait for them to get ready? You are, after all, promoting they be allowed to learn at the pace they choose. What if they choose to learn nothing? What do we do as they fall one, two, three..six...twelve software courses behind schedule???? How will they respond as they get behind? Short of paying kids to go to school, I don't think you could make this work at all and even then, I think you will lose much when you reduce or take away the discourse that happens, naturally, in the human lead classroom.

You are, completely, discounting that we do not live in a society that teaches our children to value learning. If we did, we wouldn't be having this debate because, like those cultures, we'd value teachers. Our kids see education as something forced upon them. They will not embrace learning a their own pace. Most of them will procrastinate. I see this in my kids every time I give work time in class. They have a "I'll do it later" mentality. They're 10th and 11th graders and one thing they have to learn is time management so, unless they're disrupting class, I don't force the issue but I see the same thing happening with online learning. I see a lot less material being covered on average.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-24-2011 at 07:36 AM..
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
You keep saying all or nothing. What happened to compromise? Computers are not the end of the world - they are the next logical progression (but not without teachers). With any totally open educational system; you could be working with older adults that wanted to fill in the gaps.

I keep saying to look at our debt. Look at the tax system. Look at the state of the economy. Look at how we rank educationally compared to the other world leaders. We are poised for change - we cannot continue the way we are going.

As far as improving the existing programs - it will happen. The technology is approaching that of the human brain. Someday computers could possible see if the child is bored? It isn’t here now - but you know it’s coming. We already have facial recognition software.

What is wrong with exciting and entertaining? Isn’t better to capture the attention of a child - that would otherwise slip through the cracks? Are computer programs only educational if they are boring?
You're either teaching a class as a cyber class or you're not. There is no half way except teaching some classes on line and some classes with a human teacher. I can't let kids self pace part of the time and then teach them as a group the rest of the time. They'll all be on a different page (do you, seriously, not get this?) I am pointing out what you will lose when you reduce/elminate the classroom environment and the teacher.

You STILL have not told me what advantage you expect to reap from cyber learning. You just keep repeatedly stating that I must see some benefit. I don't see a benefit. That's why I don't supervise a cyber taught classroom (I wouldn't anyway. If it comes to that, they can hire a para and I'll go back into industry where my knowledge base is useful.). For the umpteenth time, what benefit do you see us reaping from replacing even one in five classes with online classes other than a cost save? I do see the cost save but I see it at great expense to our kids, most of whom are not intrinsically motivated enough to learn through cyber learning to begin with.

When you have as your goal making education exciting ane entertaining, you prime kids to only learn that which is exciting and entertaining. You send the message that it is NOT their job to learn or their fault if they don't. It's someone elses job to make it exciting and entertaining to learn and if they don't make it entertaining and exciting to ME (we all have our own definitions of exciting and entertaining here) and I fail,it's THEIR fault that I got a failing grade not mine. You just didn't make it entertaining or exciting enough to hold my attention. This is a vicious circle. The more exciting and entertaining we make education, the more exciting and entertaining kids expect it to be and the more exciting and entertaining we're expected to make it.

Take movies for example. What was exciting and entertaining in my day is now boring and lame to my kids. They wouldn't dream of paying money to see movies we lined up around the block to see. THAT is what you are proposing doing with education. Now imagine what kind of workers kids taught this way would be.... We'll have to start making work exciting ane entertaining because they've been conditioned to believe only things that are exciting and entertaining are worth doing and it's someone elses job to make things entertaining and exciting.

Trust me, we have enough problems competing with X-Box as things are.

That said, I do see two possible benefits to online learning. In smaller schools, you can still offer classes that you don't have a teacher to teach. My school uses an online program for AP chemistry because we only have one or two kids a year who want to take AP chemistry so we can't offer the class. Cyber learning is better than nothing. I can also see applications for kids located in remote regions who may not even have a school. Again, better than nothing. I also think it's worth a shot as a form of remediation. Maybe after having sat in class and failed the class a student might learn enough more through the cyber program to pass the class. I do think that after a child fails, you need to try something different, although, three out of four (I said two out of three earlier but then I remembered I have one more who is repeating) of my repeating kids this year have a TOTALLY different attitude from last year. I predict, based on that alone, that they will, not only, pass this year, they'll do well.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-24-2011 at 08:12 AM..
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,131 posts, read 10,568,819 times
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Ivorytickler,

You have a much easier time looking at the problems with cyber education than you do looking at the benefits or looking for solutions to our problems. Any program can be rewritten or tweaked. It will not happen overnight. But, like I said before; change is inevitable. They will learn how to deal with distracted kids in cyber school - especially if teachers let the programmers know the problems - this is just another communication or listening problem.

I want education to not only compete with the toys, like your X-Box; I want education to win. You have to look at what holds our kid’s attention now and then mold it into the educational format. It has to be better than kids slashing and hacking at each other in cyber space.
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Old 09-24-2011, 03:47 PM
 
553 posts, read 872,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
The concept was faulty thinking in the first place. To me, NCLB is evolution stuck in reverse. There will always be “Alphas” - maybe not like in the SCI-FI program; but kids that can and will excel. There will also be kids that need extra attention or will never understand and some that will be sidetracked by all the evils in our world.

I do understand that we don’t want to leave any child behind - if we can get them on the right track. If they distract the others from learning or hold others back - then we have failed. Some children just learn at a slower pace or only when they are ready to learn. That would be the advantage of my original post. Anybody, at any time, could learn.
School is a mini model of your adult life.
Learning on its own does not present any value.
It is your ability to organize yourself, to keep up, to discipline, to concentrate your attention and to switch your attention you learn at school and to ADAPT. If students have trouble keeping up with the main stream, they should either work harder at home or do not expect any excellence.
When I was in school and in a college, in a math class for instance, I was never ever able to understand what was going on. I had to come home and read the book.
So I say to a person who can read:
READ THE textbook AT HOME in your own pace. You will succeed if you do.
Otherwise quit wining and just go get a job as early as you can. Quit spending tax payers money on your education if you are not able to organize yourself. Period.
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Old 09-24-2011, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Ivorytickler,

You have a much easier time looking at the problems with cyber education than you do looking at the benefits or looking for solutions to our problems. Any program can be rewritten or tweaked. It will not happen overnight. But, like I said before; change is inevitable. They will learn how to deal with distracted kids in cyber school - especially if teachers let the programmers know the problems - this is just another communication or listening problem.

I want education to not only compete with the toys, like your X-Box; I want education to win. You have to look at what holds our kid’s attention now and then mold it into the educational format. It has to be better than kids slashing and hacking at each other in cyber space.
AGAIN I ask...what benefit do YOU see from cyberl earning?????

I've already told you I don't see any benefits from cyber learning. I see only problems with it and I'm sure it will be a disaster.

PLEASE enlighten me as to the benefits of cyber learning over classroom learning...as I've asked, over and over and over....but you don't seem to want to answer the question. I'm starting to think you can't.

So you think education should compete with x-box???? You've got to be kidding. What kind of workers will kids who learned plugged into game like systems make? How much will they learn when learning is all about being entertained? I really don't get why you're pushing this agenda. You have yet to tell us the tangible benefits of using cyber learning.

So, please enlighten us. How will education be superior with cyber learning. How will you keep kids on task? How will you instill a love of learning (our ultimate goal) when you resort to using gimmicks and gaming systems to get kids interested? How well do you think this will prepare them for the real world? PLEASE tell us the benefits of cyber learning. You just keep hawking it without telling us what it will do for us.

Two wrongs do not make a right. The problem is our kids are over stimulated and used to the image in front of them changing every 5 seconds. The solution is NOT to give them more of the same. It's to unplug them!!!!
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