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Old 09-26-2011, 10:04 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,947,709 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
That is an extra curricular activity.
I call it just math.
Math is part of the curriculum and is academic, by default.

How can it be extra? Or do you guys call extra-curriculum ANYTHING that is done outside of assigned class homework/for grades?

In that case, OF COURSE the student will need to do a lot of "extra-curriculum" activities if he is to amount to anything.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:14 PM
 
11,614 posts, read 19,729,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it depends on the activity. An intellectually-inclined student will be drawn to intellectual extra-curriculum activities. An athletic student will be drawn to athletics. Top athletes are not necessarily known for their intellectually-inclined natures.
You are sadly mistaken about this.

University of Chicago has had 11 athletes that were also Rhodes Scholars.

http://athletics.uchicago.edu/history/history-rhodes.htm

Williams College has also had many athletes that were Rhodes Scholars, Marshall Scholars, Fulbright Scholars and Nobel Prize winners:

Williams

Harvard University has had 52 athletes that were Rhodes Scholars:

Rhodes Scholars in Harvard Athletics: Harvard Athletics - GoCrimson.com

I could go on and on about this but the truth is that there are MANY academically oriented athletes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Can they get top grades due to discipline? Of course. Are they truly intellectually inclined? No, because if they were they'd be burning to read and write books - not be on the field.
See above. It's not just discipline. Some athletes are actually smart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
As for multi-tasking...there's a limit to that. Perhaps colleges will change their orientation when they realize that pretty much EVERYTHING today falls into the "quantity/poor quality" category. Again, any college worth its salt should know that a student really good at something is worth 100 times more than one who has joggled one hundred things but in the end they are only superficially good at some of those.
Well what about kids that juggle a hundred things and are really good at more than one of them? Those kids are the ones the colleges want. Not just the kids that went to school and got good grades.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:17 PM
 
11,614 posts, read 19,729,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I call it just math.
Math is part of the curriculum and is academic, by default.

How can it be extra? Or do you guys call extra-curriculum ANYTHING that is done outside of assigned class homework/for grades?

In that case, OF COURSE the student will need to do a lot of "extra-curriculum" activities if he is to amount to anything.
It's outside of the requirements of the curriculum. That is what makes it extra curricular. Extra curricular activities can be academic like math team or non academic like sports.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:03 PM
 
102 posts, read 144,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo61397 View Post

I don't see these as frills, or even as entertainment or fun. I see these things as valuable experiences that have made me the person I am today. I would rather my children have outside interest other than academics as well, because I want them to EXPERIENCE life, not study it.
I agree, both as a teacher and a parent. It is NOT true that kids who study more hours "do better" because of those hours. All the way through elementary school at least, the brightest kids can hear something once and have no real need for homework, except to solidify skills. It just isn't true that the person with the very highest test score or GPA is the best at the job. I want an oncologist who is medically brilliant AND can communicate with me clearly and with compassion. That doctor will have higher patient compliance and a better survival rate than one who is "merely" brilliant.

My child played in band and orchestra and speaks another language fluently (beyond what would be required for college admission). People like her make the world far more interesting and a generally better place to live. I would not trade her musical abilities for another .3 in her GPA.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:11 PM
 
102 posts, read 144,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post

However, I am still hoping to raise kids who will turn into resourceful humans and not into "perfect" human resources. I wish I had the luxury to show all those bureaucracies and businesses telling the educational establishment what they need - the finger. But I don't have that luxury so I will certainly teach my kids that they will have to enter the "team" game, whether they like it or not......
You gave me a variety of examples you know personally. I have one too - since we're playing with them. One of my cousins finished his PhD at Stanford without having done one single extra-curriculum activity in his entire life. Granted he may have been "forgiven" as he was born and raised in a different country that just "doesn't do that".
However, he made them an offer they could not refuse: he probably dared them to come up with another candidate who received first place in several International Math Olympics. The guy is one of the best mathematicians in the world presently. It is funny how when you really do have something to show academically, no one cares about your captain-ships and your "volunteering" anymore.
You're conflating "team player" and "drone". When the business world asked for team players, they were talking about people who are able to work with others synergistically. I agree that business shouldn't be calling the shots, this is simply an attempt to clear up the facts.

I certainly don't want my kid to grow up to become a cog in the corporate machine. It is for that exact reason that I wanted her to pursue more than just English, math and the sciences. The other subjects are the things that make her unique. I think your average musician is far less likely to become a worker drone than someone who has only studied core academics. The central question is one of values. I believe that there are far more important things than having the very highest GPA or getting into a top-10 university (not that there's anything wrong with that!).
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:14 PM
 
102 posts, read 144,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
so perhaps we have not yet agreed on our "extra-curriculum" definition. When I say academic I am thinking of all the core subjects in the classic tradition of the liberal arts education.

Playing organized sports is not one of them.
I think you're correct that we disagree as to the definition of extra-curricular. What, besides sports, do you define as non-academic?
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:50 AM
 
11,614 posts, read 19,729,031 times
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Here is an article, published in my local newspaper about one of those student athletes on scholarship at a private school.

He sings, he dances, he plays football AND he gets good grades!

American Heritage-Delray's Mike Wallace comfortable on the football field and the stage - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:03 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,410,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it depends on the activity. An intellectually-inclined student will be drawn to intellectual extra-curriculum activities. An athletic student will be drawn to athletics. Top athletes are not necessarily known for their intellectually-inclined natures. Can they get top grades due to discipline? Of course. Are they truly intellectually inclined? No, because if they were they'd be burning to read and write books - not be on the field.

.
For about the 20th time on this thread--you are WRONG....the top athletes are almost ALWAYS the top students...with RARE exceptions. You can do both, play a sport AND read a book, it happens quite often actually.

Again, your kid is 6. You are making a lot of generalizations about high school kids with NO experience with kids in this age group. Having high school aged kids, I see these kids every day and you are flat out wrong about the intellectual drive of athletes. Go visit the high school in your town, talk to the administrators, ask what activities their top students are in, you will find you are just wrong.

Last edited by golfgal; 09-27-2011 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Middle America
35,821 posts, read 39,387,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it depends on the activity. An intellectually-inclined student will be drawn to intellectual extra-curriculum activities. An athletic student will be drawn to athletics. Top athletes are not necessarily known for their intellectually-inclined natures. Can they get top grades due to discipline? Of course. Are they truly intellectually inclined? No, because if they were they'd be burning to read and write books - not be on the field.
Hah, because you can't possibly be interested in both! Having multiple interests and skills is garbage! If you are burning to read and write...that NEEDS TO BE ALL YOU LIKE TO DO!!!!

You MUST be one or the other - bookish or jock. Intellectual students CAN'T be athletic, and everyone knows that smart kids are awful at/hate sports!

Oh, wait...that's not right...that's just the plot from Revenge of the Nerds. And stupid.

Look, I'm the least athletically-inclined person you've ever met. I know you appear to have, among your other stereotypical assumptions, the idea that Americans = sports freaks. Many are, many couldn't care less. Many enjoy sports, but aren't fanatics. Many who enjoy watching sports aren't athletic. Many would rather gouge their eyes out than participate in or watch athletics. I fall in the fairly disinterested range, myself. But I'm not ignorant enough to make blanket statements that "Jocks are dumb, and all smart kids think sports are stupid."

Your kid isn't going to be a "sports kid." We get it. I hope for him that it isn't something he'd actually LOVE to do, and that if participation in sports is something that could benefit him, you and your biases don't end up hurting him in the long run, and limiting his potential successes and personal enjoyment.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Went around the corner & now I'm lost!!!!
1,550 posts, read 2,960,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
In reality the trouble is purely cultural. It's about THE LEASH!!
It's the DISCIPLINE (that is, the lack thereof).
That's all. NOTHING else.

It's not the teachers fault but instead it's the parent's fault.
Lack of parenting skills.

The parent has to take responsibility for their kids education.
You have to do more that just sending the kid to a building with the letters s-c-h-o-o-l on it.

YES...YES...YES. IT IS THE PARENTS LACK OF DISCIPLINE IN THE HOME!!!! That sets the foundation of the behavior of ANY child when they transition into the public arena.

I treat disabled kid in their homes and let me tell you, I spend 2 to 3 WEEKS just disciplining them to behave so I can get to do therapy with them. And it is getting worse with every new decade of kids. I see FIRST hand the family dynamics and the children in the household are beating up the parents. All of the children are falling out on the floor, screaming on the top of their lungs, telling the parents to shut up, pulling up a chair to get into the cabinets to get a bag of chips or candy whenever they want and doing what they want to do; totally ignoring the parents. These kids don't respect their own parents, why would you think they would respect any other adult figure? The older schoolage children just flat out tell the parents what they will or will not do; even using a very calm, polite voice and matter of factly turn a walk away from the parent!!!!

These parents are sending the kids to school to get them out of their hair and then they want to dictate what the "teacher" or in my case the "therapist" should be doing with their child when THEY AS THE PARENT SHOULD BE DOING IT.

I agree with the OP, the puppies were not leash and collar trained by their owners when they were younger. Now you have little bucking brats to deal with.
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