U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-22-2011, 09:43 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,943,114 times
Reputation: 3819

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
It's not the teachers fault but instead it's the parent's fault.
Lack of parenting skills.
Yes, it is - for the most part; but I realized there is even a limit to blaming parents!
I have heard many complaints from parents who fear that disciplining the child can cause the child to report them to CPC. Someone had just posted on another thread here about this very topic - and the details she gave there literally made me shudder.

When the school/authorities send subtle messages at home that "we are watching you for abuse - as in anything that makes your child uncomfortable or angry", you have already set a hostile environment for firm parenting.

Not everyone has easy to discipline children. Some of them require relatively forceful approaches - and THAT is something many parents have come to fear doing; and yet others are so enamored with the permissive ideology of our time that they would be offended by the very idea that a classroom should look the way I described above in the first place.

Golfgal asked "where are you that you see such hellions"?

I am not sure what to make of this hyperbole but I can say that those kids are not "hellions". They are just undisciplined children who engage in all sorts of disruptive and yes, natural behavior and which most parents would see as nothing abnormal for a 5-6 yo.
Unfortunately such natural-for-a-5-6-yo behavior makes teaching very difficult. So it must be curbed. Somehow we have come to believe that anything that comes naturally should be allowed full manifestation. It shouldn't.

Schooling is NOT one of those things that come naturally for the vast majority of children; and yet, it needs to be done.

The vast majority of children are NOT these geniuses in hiding, bursting with creativity, wonder, motivation and desire to learn IF ONLY, oh IF ONLY schools could come up with teahing methods attractive enough, colorful enough, interesting enough, poppy enough, game-like enough to make average Joey enthralled with the process.

Schooling is by definition imbued with effort and tedium; and effort is hard and unpleasant to the vast majority of children who are not omega-gifted to the point where they can't sleep at night until they solve that math equation.

Until America will change its fundamentally wrong ideology (that all children are naturally creative, curious and desiring to learn) the educational process will be built on a shaky foundation.

Last edited by syracusa; 09-22-2011 at 09:57 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-22-2011, 09:44 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,943,114 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauramc27 View Post
The OP is right on target! I was in my daughters classroom this past Tuesday and will be there again today and let me say, I don't know how these kids learn. There were kids talking out of turn, laying down on the floor writing their papers, laughing, walking around, getting up to get a drink of water, without asking etc... I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

I have volunteered since my daughter started school and I have to say that not all of her classes were like this. Some teachers were/are better at controlling than others but too many are uncontrolled.

May I ask what grade?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 12,502,193 times
Reputation: 3540
If your starting to discipline them at an early age then when they get to school you shouldn't have a proublem .
Starting to discipline them at a older age will not work.(rebellion)
You have to do it before the problems in school arise or when they are young.

Do you have to beat them so CPS is involved no, there are many ways to discipline them.

It still boils down to the parent 100%.
It's the teachers job to teach, not to discipline your kid.
This disruptive behavior takes way from the other kids opportunity to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it is - for the most part; but I realized there is even a limit to blaming parents!
I have heard many complaints from parents who fear that disciplining the child can cause the child to report them to CPC. Someone had just posted on another thread here about this very topic - and the details she gave there literally made me shudder.

When the school/authorities send subtle messages at home that "we are watching you for abuse - as in anything that makes your child uncomfortable or angry", you have already set a hostile environment for firm parenting.

Not everyone has easy to discipline children. Some of them require relatively forceful approaches - and THAT is something many parents fear doing; and yet others are so enamored with the permissive ideology of our time that they would be offended by the very idea that a classroom should look the way I described above.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:11 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,943,114 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
If your starting to discipline them at an early age then when they get to school you shouldn't have a proublem .
Starting to discipline them at a older age will not work.(rebellion)
You have to do it before the problems in school arise or when they are young.
Yes, this is true; but to avoid engaging in an overly simplistic war against parents...here are my intense, systematic and objective (to the very best of my abilities) observations throughout the years: most parents just don't do that. That is, discipline adequately. Many THINK they do, but they don't.

There are several reasons why they don't discipline adequately including ideology (dictated by the generally permissive public discourse of our times, belief in the "honeeey!!" approach when it comes to raising one's child) as well as exhaustion. I have caught myself many times been guilty of the latter.

Consistent and firm discipline can take an incredible amount of energy with a naturally rebellious child; in those moments of exhaustion (which many parents are faced with nowadays) the leash can get longer and longer without the parent even noticing.

The cause is simple: LACK OF DISCIPLINE.
The explanation for why discipline is not there anymore is a bit more complex.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:22 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,363,417 times
Reputation: 10471
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauramc27 View Post
The OP is right on target! I was in my daughters classroom this past Tuesday and will be there again today and let me say, I don't know how these kids learn. There were kids talking out of turn, laying down on the floor writing their papers, laughing, walking around, getting up to get a drink of water, without asking etc... I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

I have volunteered since my daughter started school and I have to say that not all of her classes were like this. Some teachers were/are better at controlling than others but too many are uncontrolled.
There were times when our kids' classrooms seemed chaotic but they were scheduled times to do so as well. I don't think kids need to sit like robots in their desks all day. Now, if the teacher was trying to give instruction during that time, say giving a math lesson, this is an issue, but if the kids had "free" time to work on whatever, not a problem.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: So Ca
13,865 posts, read 13,545,555 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Kids talk uncalled on. They can't self-regulate tone and talk out loud left and right during class. They can't wait for their turn. They turn around, get up from the table and do something else outside the ongoing activity without the vaguest notion that they are in school and they need to be paying attention. They do it because they can and because the leash is long.
Our kids did not experience this at all, and I volunteered in their classrooms from K-5th grade. I also substitute taught in the district. I saw what you're describing once, in a long-term substitute's classroom. Kindergartens here had a huge leash. Kids who didn't adhere to the classroom rules had disciplinary action taken and usually didn't continue the behavior beyond the first few weeks of school. Some kindergarteners were retained since they were deemed immature. There would have been too many parent complaints if the classrooms had been as out of control as your example.

One of our child's teachers had "stations" as part of her kindergarten day, where parents volunteered with small groups of students and worked on printing, reading or cooking. Even in those, and even with parents, these kids followed the rules.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 12,502,193 times
Reputation: 3540
Syracusa, I agree.

I was one of those rebellious ones.
Sorry folks (to my parents)

Some of us cane from a different time, a time when teachers still could and would hit us. Not with there fists but with rulers, yard sticks, paddles or by picking you up by pinching your ear lobe etc etc,
If we came home with a bruise from the teacher we hid it from our parents or we would have a matching one to go with it from our folks.
Because of this I acted better in school than I did out of school.

We didn't hit our kids much, just a spanking now and then but that's it.
Our son didn't act up and our daughter waited until high school to act out.


Now, our daughter is trying using the time out method with some poor results.
They ( the two girls) can do a time out standing on there heads it's like water off a ducks back. It's no longer a deterrent.
They talk back and say no when they are told to do something and tell her go do it her self. Both are preschool age.

She and her husband will never hit them.

Sorry, to say but we are not as civilized or advanced to the point you can do away with corporal punishment.

Spare the rod spoil the child?


In total, 49% of more than 2,000 parents surveyed for the Times Educational Supplement were in favor, compared with 45% who were opposed.
However, 62% of pupils thought teachers should be allowed to be tougher in terms of classroom discipline, compared with 91% of parents.
BBC News - 'Nearly half of parents' back corporal punishment


PS put a pinch collar on these kids and yank the leash.
It's for the good of all. jmo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,160,640 times
Reputation: 3481
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Until America will change its fundamentally wrong ideology (that all children are naturally creative, curious and desiring to learn) the educational process will be built on a shaky foundation.
I've been avoiding this for a couple of years now, syracusa, but I just have to ask...why do you stay here, if everything is so dreadful?

I'm not saying "America, love it or leave it", but for the love of mike, I have never seen one positive post about anything in this country flow from your fingertips. Why would you stay in what is apparently, for you, Dante's tenth ring? It seems...illogical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 12,502,193 times
Reputation: 3540
yea, just conform and become a sheeple.

Why stay ,because this country wasn't built on the premise of truing the other cheek when the going gets rough.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-22-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
346 posts, read 427,912 times
Reputation: 506
To the OP:
I agree, it is a cultural issue, or rather one with many facets, all stemming from society and cultural movements and trends. However, I think it is simplistic to narrow it down to only discipline. The whole system is broken, from parenting, to a sue-happy society, a hyper focus on children's self-esteem taking priority over all other factors including behavior and manners, and a failure to modernize teaching methods to keep up with how our kids brains develop amidst new technology.

Certainly, a well controlled classroom in which the kids respect the teacher will yield better results. I guess we need a cultural revolution.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top