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Old 10-04-2011, 10:14 AM
 
48,962 posts, read 39,428,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22 View Post
There was an op-ed piece in the Atlanta newspaper today (unfortunately I can't find it online to link to it). A mom wrote about the Atlanta Public Schools' Challenge Program for the Gifted and Talented. They will be taking a field trip to Disney World for several days. One of her kids in the program; the other is not. The son who is not in the gifted program has supposedly been traumatized by his lack of inclusion in this. He now hates school, is afraid to do his homework because he may make a mistake, and cries constantly. This paragraph blew me away:

Get Schooled | ajc.com



So---is she saying that 60+% percent of kids in her son's class are in the gifted and talented program? Can there be a majority who are gifted/talented? By definition, wouldn't they be in the minority? She later goes on to talk about a Duke University research project where every child was treated as gifted and the result was 20% of the kids eventually designated as being gifted as opposed to the control group of 10%.

And would a child really be so traumatized by his brother getting a special treat? Isn't it good for kids to learn that rewards/resources aren't infinite and that not everyone gets everything s/he wants? If kids aren't "sorted," then should every/any kid get a scholarship even if they have poor grades/scores, etc.?

I will agree with the author that the trip to Disney World is an unnecessary use of taxpayers' money (the kids have to pay for the trip, but the teachers will be getting their salaries) and that the "cast members" of the theme park shouldn't be more capable of teaching rigorous content than the teachers.

What do y'all think?
Oh please.
If she can't handle that then her head is going to EXPLODE when she sees all the perks the athletes get.

Has she never been around a college? Let's see full-ride, trips around the countries, various gifts and so forth. MANY southern schools have football coaches that make 6-figs and don't even teach a class. LMAO.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:14 AM
 
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That is absolutely fine, cc. But the materials and instruction are available to all students, not just those with high Cogat scores.

Mathguy, lest we forget, these are elementary school students, not college athletes.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:16 AM
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
9,520 posts, read 13,362,525 times
Reputation: 19985
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
I know a couple dozen or so whose parents think they're intellectually gifted. Whether or not that is the case remains to be seen. At this point, I believe one fourth-grade girl actually qualifies.
So you're basing your opinions on the actions of some wannabe parents and maybe one or two actual gifted kids?
This would be why I have such a hard time understanding the hostility towards the G/T kids on this board.

All the fuss about how it's unfair that some children get to be in the G/T program and others don't just mystifies me. I can only speak from my own experience but in our district any child can apply for the G/T program.
Acceptance is NOT based on socio-economic status. You can't buy or bully your way in. Qualification is based on a lot of things other than just IQ. If your child doesn't qualify how is that any different than not making the cut for band, not having a good enough portfolio for art class, not making any of the other programs that schools offer to those that are best qualified?
Every child has the opportunity to try. How is that unfair?
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,783,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Edward, you need to review the meaning of egalitarianism.
Lol do some research on French society, the originators of the term and get back to me. If you don't go to one of the select few Ecoles you will be hard pressed to rise above your station unless maybe you can play soccor or something.

In the UK you can give away your class origins in a matter of seconds just based on your speech. Egalitarianism is not organic to the human condition societies are organized in hierarchal structures even in communist countries. Human like social order, we like to know where we stack up against others.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
So you're basing your opinions on the actions of some wannabe parents and maybe one or two actual gifted kids?
This would be why I have such a hard time understanding the hostility towards the G/T kids on this board.

All the fuss about how it's unfair that some children get to be in the G/T program and others don't just mystifies me. I can only speak from my own experience but in our district any child can apply for the G/T program.
Acceptance is NOT based on socio-economic status. You can't buy or bully your way in. Qualification is based on a lot of things other than just IQ. If your child doesn't qualify how is that any different than not making the cut for band, not having a good enough portfolio for art class, not making any of the other programs that schools offer to those that are best qualified?
Every child has the opportunity to try. How is that unfair?
Your analogies are nonsensical. When is the last time you saw a fifth-grade musician cut from band? Or a third-grader denied the opportunity to create a piece of art and display it on the bulletin board in the hall? Doesn't happen.

I'm not hostile to smart children and their need for enrichment. I'm hostile to those who think that it's okay to sabotage others' access to enrichment based on the dubious results of an IQ test administered in the first couple of years of school.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:25 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,509,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Lol do some research on French society, the originators of the term and get back to me. If you don't go to one of the select few Ecoles you will be hard pressed to rise above your station unless maybe you can play soccor or something.

In the UK you can give away your class origins in a matter of seconds just based on your speech. Egalitarianism is not organic to the human condition societies are organized in hierarchal structures even in communist countries. Human like social order, we like to know where we stack up against others.
Seriously? You think you can throw out a French word or two and leave me sputtering in confusion. I'm well-educated, too, Edward. But more to the point, there is simply no excuse for you to misuse the concept of egalitarianism in this discussion, since you obviously know what it means.

Last edited by formercalifornian; 10-04-2011 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:33 AM
 
530 posts, read 960,036 times
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I have children on opposite ends of the academic spectrum and therefore have seen scores on standardized subtests as low as the 9th percentile and as high as the max allowed (above the 99th percentile). From being their parent it has become clear to me, you cannot treat children of different abilities the same way, and I struggled to find a school that would serve all my children well. The key for us was finding a school that pushes ALL children academically while recognizing that the baseline is different. If you throw a struggling student into an advanced class, you may see that student panic or just tune out. If you put an advanced student in a less advanced class, you may see frustration, the same tendency to tune out, or that student may just do other things (like one of kids reads when she is ahead of the class). It was actually tough to find a school that provided a good balance.

In the school where we are at now, there is an acceptance that children are different, but all the children are treated with the same care and attention. There are advanced students who go to higher grade levels for certain subjects and struggling students who go out of class for extra help. However, one student is not treated as being more valued than the other. This goes a long way. My struggling student has improved tremendously over the years by being academically pushed. Still, she knows a number of her classmates are more academically talented than her, and this does not bother her much since she has learned the fact of life that different people are good at different things.

In fact seeing other people work hard and succeed has helped motivate her to find somewhere she can shine. She is talented in music and has found that this is one area where she is more advanced than most of her classmates. The drive for achievement is helping now in this area.

Overall, it sounds to me like this school in the OP is doing a disservice on several fronts. It has too many kids in the gifted program and therefore cannot possibly be accurately assessing the children. It is not picking a great enrichment destination for kids who are truly academically gifted. (They should look at the one the university programs like the Johns Hopkins Program for the Gifted for guidance on better field trips). It sounds like the kids are not being treated with equal respect at school and that the mom is making this far worse. She needs to find something her struggling child is good at so both her children can find their niche in life and work hard towards achieving attainable goals.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
21,067 posts, read 15,252,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
So you're basing your opinions on the actions of some wannabe parents and maybe one or two actual gifted kids?
This would be why I have such a hard time understanding the hostility towards the G/T kids on this board.

All the fuss about how it's unfair that some children get to be in the G/T program and others don't just mystifies me. I can only speak from my own experience but in our district any child can apply for the G/T program.
Acceptance is NOT based on socio-economic status. You can't buy or bully your way in. Qualification is based on a lot of things other than just IQ. If your child doesn't qualify how is that any different than not making the cut for band, not having a good enough portfolio for art class, not making any of the other programs that schools offer to those that are best qualified?
Every child has the opportunity to try. How is that unfair?
Me too.
Perhaps it is that is just harder for people to actually see evidence of intellectual talent and/or to quantify same?
Obviously, it is very easy to quantify talent on the football field or talent in band and sadly in our society those things are rewarded far more handsomely than is academic achievement.

Clearly our priorities are skewed.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:57 AM
 
1,226 posts, read 1,982,112 times
Reputation: 1850
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
All the fuss about how it's unfair that some children get to be in the G/T program and others don't just mystifies me. I can only speak from my own experience but in our district any child can apply for the G/T program.
Acceptance is NOT based on socio-economic status. You can't buy or bully your way in. Qualification is based on a lot of things other than just IQ. If your child doesn't qualify how is that any different than not making the cut for band, not having a good enough portfolio for art class, not making any of the other programs that schools offer to those that are best qualified?
Every child has the opportunity to try. How is that unfair?
I will say that there is a big difference between how G/T is treated in some districts. I only have been in two, but if you want something to criticize:

In FL, my district actually started G/T in kindergarten, but did not do formal testing until the end of kindergarten. Therefore, if you wanted to get your child tested for kindergarten, you had to pay several hundred dollars for private testing. It was a school that pooled the kids from various schools, and housed them there. So there was more gifted classes than non gifted, for every subject. The G/T kids all had IEP's, which basically means that there was unlimited funding, because by federal law you cannot use cost as an excuse not to give a student with an IEP what they need. They had better teachers, smaller class sizes. Their testing allowed a small percentage in. Private testing allowed a far larger percentage in. Was it Dr. shopping, more involved parents, easier at an earlier age, harder test.... I don't know, but there was DEFINITELY kids in there that didn't belong. If you don't know how to read in K, and the others are reading 2nd grade books.... not the wisest choice, I think. But I certainly thought it was unfair, and I was on the side that could afford it and did make it. I can certainly see the criticizm of that G/T program. If you ever read Dr. Seuss' Sneetches, that was exactly what it was.

Not all districts are like that, and my current one tests all students, and they do a very good picking them out... EVERY year starting in third grade, so if you didn't get a high IQ score, but if you have good grades and good achievement test scores, you can qualify. So if you don't make it one year, you might the next. And they use different scores for math and reading, so you might be in one, but not the other. You can also feel free to double up on certain classes to get on the fast track in middle school. Nobody is really shut out, but they DO have criteria.

It can be done right. It can also be done terribly wrong.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:57 AM
 
831 posts, read 1,307,686 times
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So because Susie in 2nd grade can do Algebra, you think all 2nd graders should be given instruction in Algebra when they are still working on basic subtraction?

Why wouldn't Susie feel like she never has to work at school because she already knows subtraction but has to sit and stare off in to space while the teacher is giving this instruction. . I am sure Susie's parent wish that the school would provide Susie with some challenging work. As a parent I would not want my child bring home a report card with every grade from every class being 100%, That would show me that mt child is not having to actually learn something new, that the work it too easy and she will not learn the need to study or what it feels like to get something wrong.

Last edited by SuzyQ123; 10-04-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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