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Old 11-07-2011, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
Reputation: 14499

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
If you think that staff days are a something teachers came up with you are off your rocker. Staff days are way for administration to deal with house keeping issues (like writing curricula and meeting state mandated professional development) and never take away from student days. In NJ kids have been going for 185 days a year (in my district) and the ten staff days we have are in addition to that. They are by no mean "fun" for us or something we prefer to being in the classroom.
It's November and we're having our first staff training day since August (we had three before the kids started back). We never get planning days. I'd love to get one planning day a month. Seriously, there should be enough planning baked into our normal week that we can actually do our jobs at work.

My dd's district is getting a planning day today (end of first quarter) and a training day tomorrow. We have school today and a staff training day tomorrow (election day so no kids in the school).
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:07 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
So? you have a degree. You have a job that requires a degree. You get paid what the job pays. If your degree is worth more in the private sector, go get a job there.
My argument is that teachers should be paid based on the degrees that are demanded for the job. Otherwise, teachers with those degrees will leave and go into industry. There's comes a point where you just can't ask your familiy to sacrifice anymore. Mine will come when dd#1 starts college in two years. I cannot pay her tuition if I keep this job. Fortunately, I have a few irons in the fire. I just need one to pan out before dd starts college.
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:26 AM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,778,864 times
Reputation: 4446
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
I'm fine with what I make as long as I do not have additional uncompensated duties thrust upon me. If you want me to continue to do more, you need to pay me more...as with any other field. If responsibilities increase, so should pay.
that isn't true that any field gets paid more when they do more- not anymore.

how exactly do you expect to pull it from a private sector which is taking on more responsibility without an increase in pay?

we have a country that is drowning in debt, and people have to start using logic for what the middle class can actually afford in terms of pay and benefits to the public sector.

of course they deserve compensation, but it has to be realistic in terms of sustainability. i certainly do think they could cut some of the waste at the top in education with all the administrators and funnel some of that downward.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:25 AM
 
12,455 posts, read 27,093,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
My argument is that teachers should be paid based on the degrees that are demanded for the job. Otherwise, teachers with those degrees will leave and go into industry. There's comes a point where you just can't ask your familiy to sacrifice anymore. Mine will come when dd#1 starts college in two years. I cannot pay her tuition if I keep this job. Fortunately, I have a few irons in the fire. I just need one to pan out before dd starts college.
I don't think this makes any sense. When a student starts college, it's their decision which direction to go. My SIL got her first bachelors degree in education, found that the pay was too low to live on as a teacher and decided to go back to college for engineering. She got that degree and worked in the industry for a few years, had kids, moved and decided to get back in the workforce as.... a teacher! Her choice. Her husband started out as an engineer, was dissatisfied with that career and decided to go to law school. He's now a patent lawyer. Each of them made education and career choices, as we all do, and salary was part of that decision.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:32 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,716,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangEater82 View Post
When the system starts collapsing, Political pressure to fix the system will come around.
The current political pressure is focused on cutting muscle but retaining fat. Teachers are laid off, classrooms are filled to bursting, but administrators/education bureaucrats remain in place at much higher salaries than teachers. Pressure to fix the system would be a refreshing (and much needed) change. Waiting for a collapse before taking corrective measures would be the dumbest and costliest approach. But I doubt the public or the political class will back anything other than "cuts" for the time being.

And the current course seems destined to hasten that collapse.

Quote:
Sent from my ACTUAL desktop device this time
That's all I have.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:19 AM
 
Location: here
24,473 posts, read 28,761,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
My argument is that teachers should be paid based on the degrees that are demanded for the job. Otherwise, teachers with those degrees will leave and go into industry. There's comes a point where you just can't ask your familiy to sacrifice anymore. Mine will come when dd#1 starts college in two years. I cannot pay her tuition if I keep this job. Fortunately, I have a few irons in the fire. I just need one to pan out before dd starts college.
I don't think most teachers think they are asking their families to sacrifice. Most teachers don't have a Master's in engineering. they have the job they went to school for, and hopefully it is a job they enjoy. You don't seem to understand that.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:22 AM
 
Location: here
24,473 posts, read 28,761,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
I don't think this makes any sense. When a student starts college, it's their decision which direction to go. My SIL got her first bachelors degree in education, found that the pay was too low to live on as a teacher and decided to go back to college for engineering. She got that degree and worked in the industry for a few years, had kids, moved and decided to get back in the workforce as.... a teacher! Her choice. Her husband started out as an engineer, was dissatisfied with that career and decided to go to law school. He's now a patent lawyer. Each of them made education and career choices, as we all do, and salary was part of that decision.
Yes. Schools aren't "asking" teachers to make a sacrifice. People choose the jobs they apply for, knowing full well what they pay.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:52 AM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
Yes. Schools aren't "asking" teachers to make a sacrifice. People choose the jobs they apply for, knowing full well what they pay.
Agreed. I have no issue with the money I make. What I have issue with is that our overall compensation is being cut. Hugely. I agreed to take the pay cut from private industry because the benefits combined with my love of teaching made the sacrifice worthwhile. But that is not what most of us are complaining about, the problem is that the pay and benefits are no longer what they were. Sort of a bait and switch.

Now, with the pay cuts, loss in benefits and increased hours the sacrifice has become too much for my family. Now keep in mind many of us in science and math were actively recruited from private industry. For example all of the math and science teachers at my school hired in the last 8 years have come from industry. All of us but one are leaving at the end of this year, because there is only so much we can sacrifice to do what we love.

So while I am sure you could care less that we are leaving, our school district (our scores on the HESPA and science APs/SATs have increased almost 20%) , our students and their parents care very much. Unfortunately, I cannot sacrifice my own family when I make so much more in private industry. And before I get the "it is hard to find a job out there", the recession is over, I sent out 4 feelers on jobs and got 4 offers. I am by no means alone, everyone leaving has already accepted positions comparable to what we had before.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 122,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
There is a ridiculous amount of research out there about this stuff. So "unwarranted suspicion" aside, most of the research finds that the best correlating factors for student success (controlling for SES) are having a teacher with a masters degree in their field, having completed actucal research (for science and math teachers) and selectivity of the college attended by the teacher. Most of this research was conducted by Linda Darling-Hammond.

And on a personal note, I use my research experience and my graduate studies every day in my classroom.
Please provide your source. Darling-Hammond's most widely-cited article on this subject supports my thesis overall. Here's a relevant quote analyzing the literature:
"It makes sense that knowledge of the material to be taught is essential to good teaching, but also that returns to subject matter expertise would grow smaller beyond some minimal essential level which exceeds the demands of the curriculum being taught."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
My argument is that teachers should be paid based on the degrees that are demanded for the job. Otherwise, teachers with those degrees will leave and go into industry. There's comes a point where you just can't ask your familiy to sacrifice anymore. Mine will come when dd#1 starts college in two years. I cannot pay her tuition if I keep this job. Fortunately, I have a few irons in the fire. I just need one to pan out before dd starts college.
The job prospects for someone with a BS in chemistry are not especially good and do not warrant the same pay you could get in industry with a masters in engineering.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,726,300 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Agreed. I have no issue with the money I make. What I have issue with is that our overall compensation is being cut. Hugely. I agreed to take the pay cut from private industry because the benefits combined with my love of teaching made the sacrifice worthwhile. But that is not what most of us are complaining about, the problem is that the pay and benefits are no longer what they were. Sort of a bait and switch.

Now, with the pay cuts, loss in benefits and increased hours the sacrifice has become too much for my family. Now keep in mind many of us in science and math were actively recruited from private industry. For example all of the math and science teachers at my school hired in the last 8 years have come from industry. All of us but one are leaving at the end of this year, because there is only so much we can sacrifice to do what we love.

So while I am sure you could care less that we are leaving, our school district (our scores on the HESPA and science APs/SATs have increased almost 20%) , our students and their parents care very much. Unfortunately, I cannot sacrifice my own family when I make so much more in private industry. And before I get the "it is hard to find a job out there", the recession is over, I sent out 4 feelers on jobs and got 4 offers. I am by no means alone, everyone leaving has already accepted positions comparable to what we had before.
I agree on the bait and switch. Michigan pushed hard to get people to come out of industry to teach only to attack their wages and benefits. I could afford to teach IF things had stayed the same. I can no longer afford to teach. I wasted my time getting this degree.
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