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Old 11-07-2011, 10:59 AM
 
16,568 posts, read 14,010,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Please provide your source. Darling-Hammond's most widely-cited article on this subject supports my thesis overall. Here's a relevant quote analyzing the literature:
"It makes sense that knowledge of the material to be taught is essential to good teaching, but also that returns to subject matter expertise would grow smaller beyond some minimal essential level which exceeds the demands of the curriculum being taught."
Way to cherry pick. I can cherry pick too. Same article.

" Quantitative analyses indicate that measures of teacher preparation and certification are by far the strongest correlates of student achievement in reading and mathematics, both before and after controlling for student poverty and language status."

Strongest correlate for student success in math and science was having a graduate degree in ones field. This is particularly true for high school students.

http://www.caldercenter.org/PDF/1001...HighSchool.pdf
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: here
24,839 posts, read 29,984,374 times
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FWIW I do think teachers are undervalued - all of them, not just those with certain schooling. Our district and state just voted down 3 ballot initiatives that would have raised taxes for schools. I hear all the time that our education system is lagging behind, but people would rather keep their money in their pocket than give a little to improve it.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 128,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Way to cherry pick. I can cherry pick too. Same article.

" Quantitative analyses indicate that measures of teacher preparation and certification are by far the strongest correlates of student achievement in reading and mathematics, both before and after controlling for student poverty and language status."
Teacher preparation is important, I've never claimed otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Strongest correlate for student success in math and science was having a graduate degree in ones field. This is particularly true for high school students.

http://www.caldercenter.org/PDF/1001...HighSchool.pdf
Which page? Page 27 and Table 3D don't imply that at all, but they don't look at math/science specifically.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,653,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Please provide your source. Darling-Hammond's most widely-cited article on this subject supports my thesis overall. Here's a relevant quote analyzing the literature:
"It makes sense that knowledge of the material to be taught is essential to good teaching, but also that returns to subject matter expertise would grow smaller beyond some minimal essential level which exceeds the demands of the curriculum being taught."

The job prospects for someone with a BS in chemistry are not especially good and do not warrant the same pay you could get in industry with a masters in engineering.
The median starting salary, in my area, with a bachelors in chemistry is $1000 higher than my salary after 5 years of teaching and I have a masters in education on top of my masters in chemical engineering. A BS in chemistry (or the equivalent) is required for my cert.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from but here a BS in chemistry will get you more than a teacher's salary by several thousand per year on day one.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 128,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The median starting salary, in my area, with a bachelors in chemistry is $1000 higher than my salary after 5 years of teaching and I have a masters in education on top of my masters in chemical engineering. A BS in chemistry (or the equivalent) is required for my cert.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from but here a BS in chemistry will get you more than a teacher's salary by several thousand per year on day one.
If the supply of applicants meeting your district's requirements at the current wage is too low, then the wage should be raised until enough qualified teachers are hired.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,066 posts, read 19,178,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
FWIW I do think teachers are undervalued - all of them, not just those with certain schooling. Our district and state just voted down 3 ballot initiatives that would have raised taxes for schools. I hear all the time that our education system is lagging behind, but people would rather keep their money in their pocket than give a little to improve it.

Experience shows that in some major US major cities, taxpayers will approve a measure to build a new multi-million dollar sports stadium for some privately owned professional team. But those same voters will turn down a bond issue to improve their schools.

Gives some perspective on the public's priorities.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:57 PM
 
12,870 posts, read 13,113,011 times
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i think these statistics can give a good idea on what is going on:

Amount and percentage distribution of direct general expenditures of state and local governments, by function: Selected years, 1970-71 through 2007-08

you can see where the spending is directed year by year. (it's the 2010 report)

you can see that education spending has gone down, while adminstration spending has gone up, and social services have gone up as a percentage.

there is always going to be a finite amount of money available for spending, and we need to see if it is being spent appropriately.
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:34 PM
 
16,568 posts, read 14,010,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
i think these statistics can give a good idea on what is going on:

Amount and percentage distribution of direct general expenditures of state and local governments, by function: Selected years, 1970-71 through 2007-08

you can see where the spending is directed year by year. (it's the 2010 report)

you can see that education spending has gone down, while adminstration spending has gone up, and social services have gone up as a percentage.

there is always going to be a finite amount of money available for spending, and we need to see if it is being spent appropriately.
Special ed is a huge piece of that pie compared to teachers salaries. Spending for special ed is growing far faster than that spent on teachers salaries, benefits or pensions.

Nationally somewhere between 1.6-3.1 times as much money is spent on pupils with disabilities compared to non-classified students.

http://csef.air.org/publications/see...p_report_5.pdf
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:39 PM
 
16,568 posts, read 14,010,954 times
Reputation: 20518
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Teacher preparation is important, I've never claimed otherwise.

Which page? Page 27 and Table 3D don't imply that at all, but they don't look at math/science specifically.
I apologize I assumed you could read a table.

Table 3d shows the correlation of various teacher variables (including degree level) vs. student success. For model 2 and 3 masters degree, statistically significant positive correlation. R increases with experience and becomes even more significant.

Second, if you read the study, they ONLY looked at math and science EOCs (with the exception of the 9th grade English). Their findings for their cohorts was more significant than other studies which looked at other secondary ed courses. Additionally if you look at table 3c, you can clearly see that there was no statistically significant (at either the p>0.05 or p>0.01) for english teachers when separated out as their own group.

Last edited by lkb0714; 11-07-2011 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 128,735 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I apologize I assumed you could read a table.

Table 3d shows the correlation of various teacher variables (including degree level) vs. student success. For model 2 and 3 masters degree, statistically significant positive correlation. Increases with experience and even more significant.

Second, if you read the study, they ONLY looked at math and science. Their findings for their cohorts was more significant than other studies which looked at ofter secondary ed courses.
Good catch on the math/science specificity.

My interpretation was still accurate. You said that "Strongest correlate for student success in math and science was having a graduate degree in ones field." Show me where this is implied by the data.

In any case, reviewing the literature for teachers in general doesn't support the idea that we should aim to attract and retain teachers with greater education. Sometimes it may make sense.
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