U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-07-2011, 05:23 PM
 
2,923 posts, read 2,919,663 times
Reputation: 3508

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
This table says basically the same thing that I told you. Private, non-sectarian schools are significantly more than $8,000/year, which is more than my district spends per child. Even the Catholic tuition for high school students is just under that amount. The only schools that are significantly below 8K are for sectarian elementary school students. They don't stay there that long before tuition increases by close to 50%.

Thanks for the reference. It proves what I tell my students every day. They deserve the same quality of education that the wealthy students get and for which those parents pay 3 to 4 times as much as what the taxpayers pay for my students' schooling. I think the taxpayers are getting what they are paying for. Compare our funding of $7,500 to the tuition paid in top schools in the Northeast, which are more in the $30,000 range. For that, each student could get a laptop with wifi and a trip abroad every year, just like the rich kids get from their parents. You could upgrade the facilities, give every teacher a smart board, and still have enough money to buy each child a full set of books for the laptop. You could come close with the tuition that the local private schools charge. Somehow, I don't believe that their parents would see the wisdom in downgrading their educational costs to public school levels.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-07-2011, 06:49 PM
 
15,808 posts, read 13,245,149 times
Reputation: 19710
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Good catch on the math/science specificity.

My interpretation was still accurate. You said that "Strongest correlate for student success in math and science was having a graduate degree in ones field." Show me where this is implied by the data.

In any case, reviewing the literature for teachers in general doesn't support the idea that we should aim to attract and retain teachers with greater education. Sometimes it may make sense.
First, I said controlling for SES. I have showed you that of all the measured variables for teacher quality, possessing a graduate degree correlates best with student outcome. And for the record. You are the one who made the inital assertion and have yet to give any support for such a claim that was either peer reviewed, not cherry picked, or from a neutral source.

Second, I am not going to look at ridiculously limited (didn't even cite anything from Darling-Hammond the authority in this area) supposed "meta analysis" from a group who, admittedly has a dog in the race. The group whose "article" you gave as "evidence" has evaluation as the sole determining factor for compensation as one of their main goals. That "article" is not even peer reviewed. If you think that is as relevant as actual peer reviewed research then there is no point in even discussing "research" with you. A review of the lit, from an obviously NOT NEUTRAL source, is meaningless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2011, 07:01 PM
 
Location: VA
549 posts, read 1,694,560 times
Reputation: 334
Different article, same notion.

This idea has been debated for a while now. You're either a teacher and you know whether or not you get compensated fairly or you're not a teacher and you don't... because frankly, you don't know what teachers do. You may have a friend, a neighbor, or a family member that's a teacher... but you don't know all factors that are involved. To think you do or to imply that's irrelevant is foolish. I don't look at military personnel and say they make too much money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2011, 09:53 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 123,224 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
First, I said controlling for SES. I have showed you that of all the measured variables for teacher quality, possessing a graduate degree correlates best with student outcome. And for the record. You are the one who made the inital assertion and have yet to give any support for such a claim that was either peer reviewed, not cherry picked, or from a neutral source.
Teacher certification?

I made it very clear that my claim was solely personal opinion not supported by research. But, for the record, I think it's noteworthy that Darling-Hammond's analysis of the topic pretty much supports what I think.

I will grant you that I have not expressed my opinion clearly. I don't think that attracting better-educated teachers should be a primary goal for our education system, at least not until other issues have been addressed. That's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Second, I am not going to look at ridiculously limited (didn't even cite anything from Darling-Hammond the authority in this area) supposed "meta analysis" from a group who, admittedly has a dog in the race. The group whose "article" you gave as "evidence" has evaluation as the sole determining factor for compensation as one of their main goals. That "article" is not even peer reviewed. If you think that is as relevant as actual peer reviewed research then there is no point in even discussing "research" with you. A review of the lit, from an obviously NOT NEUTRAL source, is meaningless.
I don't believe I presented that source as peer-reviewed research. If you have a preferable source, feel free to share.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2011, 10:27 PM
 
15,808 posts, read 13,245,149 times
Reputation: 19710
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Teacher certification?

I made it very clear that my claim was solely personal opinion not supported by research. But, for the record, I think it's noteworthy that Darling-Hammond's analysis of the topic pretty much supports what I think.
It isn't noteworthy because you cherry picked a single line and didn't look at the data. She also has found that for secondary school, degree attained is a strong predictor of student outcome.

Second, you stated that IQ and academic accomplishment were poor correlates. That is not true, especially for the academic accomplishment part. Degree in ones field (graduate or otherwise) is correlates better than that of having a traditional education degree.

Quote:
I will grant you that I have not expressed my opinion clearly. I don't think that attracting better-educated teachers should be a primary goal for our education system, at least not until other issues have been addressed. That's it.

I don't believe I presented that source as peer-reviewed research. If you have a preferable source, feel free to share.
Look, you presented an opinion, I presented research. Even if we ignore your cherry picking, your response to peer reviewed research was a weak lit review from an admittedly biased source. You are of course entitled to your opinion, unfortunately for you, it is just plain old wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2011, 10:59 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 123,224 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
It isn't noteworthy because you cherry picked a single line and didn't look at the data. She also has found that for secondary school, degree attained is a strong predictor of student outcome.
That line was representative of the conclusion in that article. I don't deny your specific data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Second, you stated that IQ and academic accomplishment were poor correlates. That is not true, especially for the academic accomplishment part. Degree in ones field (graduate or otherwise) is correlates better than that of having a traditional education degree.
Granted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-08-2011, 08:22 AM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 123,224 times
Reputation: 41
I'll concede. Should have done this a few pages ago. Thanks to lkb0714 for keeping me honest.

My judgment was poor yesterday (on and offline).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,383 posts, read 6,868,176 times
Reputation: 1434
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
FWIW I do think teachers are undervalued - all of them, not just those with certain schooling. Our district and state just voted down 3 ballot initiatives that would have raised taxes for schools. I hear all the time that our education system is lagging behind, but people would rather keep their money in their pocket than give a little to improve it.
I'd double the money to schools, if I thought it would fix them. There are several administration and social problems with this.

As I stated in other threads, let us say we gave all teachers a $15k a year raise tomorrow, change nothing else. How much would our schools improve?

Sent from my autocorrect butchering device.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,383 posts, read 6,868,176 times
Reputation: 1434
Quote:
Originally Posted by endersshadow View Post
Different article, same notion.

This idea has been debated for a while now. You're either a teacher and you know whether or not you get compensated fairly or you're not a teacher and you don't... because frankly, you don't know what teachers do. You may have a friend, a neighbor, or a family member that's a teacher... but you don't know all factors that are involved. To think you do or to imply that's irrelevant is foolish. I don't look at military personnel and say they make too much money.
To add to that. Go ask 10 random employed people, if they feel their responsibilities at there job went up and if they feel unfairly compensated for there job. What response would you expect in all the fields?

Sent from my autocorrect butchering device.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2011, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Fort Payne Alabama
1,073 posts, read 1,479,200 times
Reputation: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by endersshadow View Post
Different article, same notion.

This idea has been debated for a while now. You're either a teacher and you know whether or not you get compensated fairly or you're not a teacher and you don't... because frankly, you don't know what teachers do. You may have a friend, a neighbor, or a family member that's a teacher... but you don't know all factors that are involved. To think you do or to imply that's irrelevant is foolish. I don't look at military personnel and say they make too much money.
The fact boils down to one simple thing, are the school districts able to fill their open teacher positions? The facts are, in many districts one must be political connected to obtain a teaching position because their are so many applicants for each open position.
Until it becomes more difficult to become a potential educator and the districts start having issues filling open positions, this debate will be ongoing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top