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Old 11-06-2011, 02:19 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,122,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
I didn't ask whether you believe it, I asked whether you have compelling evidence to support your belief. And how do you measure educational quality?
If we're talking about the quality of education a teacher has in order to determine whether he or she is qualified to become a teacher, it can be as simple as having gone to a good university AND having met the teacher's certification requirements.

I haven't done the research and frankly I don't know how to measure it's validity. But I'd certainly prefer children to be taught by those with better education than those with lower education (again, measured by the school attended is enough).

Interesting, yet inconclusive, article: Ezra Klein - Do We Need Ivy-League Teachers?

It comes full circle as well. If we value education more, we'll become better educators and learners.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 122,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
If we're talking about the quality of education a teacher has in order to determine whether he or she is qualified to become a teacher, it can be as simple as having gone to a good university AND having met the teacher's certification requirements.

I haven't done the research and frankly I don't know how to measure it's validity. But I'd certainly prefer children to be taught by those with better education than those with lower education (again, measured by the school attended is enough).

Interesting, yet inconclusive, article: Ezra Klein - Do We Need Ivy-League Teachers?

It comes full circle as well. If we value education more, we'll become better educators and learners.
My unwarranted suspicion is that academic accomplishment and IQ are both probably fairly poorly correlated with teaching aptitude. I don't see the completion of graduate-level courses in algebraic topology as relevant to the teaching of high school math, for example.

(Determining the quality of a university is another tricky issue, probably not relevant here.)
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,554 posts, read 22,715,248 times
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Without teachers we would have...doctors? scientists? nobel prize winners? artists? dare I add lawyers? accountants? pilots? the list goes on.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,255 posts, read 4,908,347 times
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It's funny that it appears no one addressed the comment I made about only working 5/8 of the year in the corporate world.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
I didn't ask whether you believe it, I asked whether you have compelling evidence to support your belief. And how do you measure educational quality?
How to measure quality of education is the $20,000 question. We really don't have a definition. Nor do we have a definition of a good teacher. It's kind of hard to aspire to something when they keep moving the target!

IMO, a good teacher is one who makes you stretch. One who challenges you and from whom you learn whether you like them or not. I had a prof in college that the students could not stand. He was anal about how things should be done and couldn't deal with it when they weren't that way but, looking back, I reinforced what I learned every time I had to recopy assignments to put them in his preferred format. So much so that I never had to study for tests. So, it wasn't a waste of my time after all... It just seemed like it at the time. Kind of how my students think it's a waste of time that I make them take notes during lectures even if they can just print out the slides.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
This is a no win argument. Salaries vary considerably from district to district and state to state. In some people's eyes anything over babysitter rates is too much. The question remains whether or not people will accept teachers as deserving of compensation similar to other positions requiring similar education and experience?

The discussion usually deteriorates with inaccurate statements such as 3 months off in summer, only working half a year, 6 1/2 hour day, etc. Many people refuse to recognize the time outside of the classroom needed to prepare lessons and assess student performance. Few people will analyze another profession and accuse them of only working 5/8 of a year (my old corporate job 230 days after vacation, holidays, weekends).

I feel that my current compensation is fair. As TabulaRasa stated, if more keeps getting added then my opinion would be different.
I've stated before that I worked less than 220 days when I was an engineer, and, you're right, no one said I only worked 5/8 of the year nor did they tell me I deserved less pay. In fact, in industry, it's the higher paying jobs that have more vacation time. They're often high stress jobs...like teaching...

One of the reasons I can work with the intensity I do during the school year is I know I will have time to recoup. I couldn't work this pace year round. I'd burn out. Still, I would like to see year round schools (so people will quit telling me I work part time) with ample prep time built into the normal work week so I can have a normal life. Work/life balance really stinks in this job. Even when I'm not actively working, I'm thinking about lesson plans and future labs and things I'd like to do. It seems like I'm either on or off. I'm on from the beginning of August until the third week of June. Then I turn into a vegetable for about four weeks, then I take summer classes and do all the projects I didn't have time for during the school year then rinse and repeat.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:45 PM
 
Location: North
98 posts, read 122,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
How to measure quality of education is the $20,000 question. We really don't have a definition. Nor do we have a definition of a good teacher. It's kind of hard to aspire to something when they keep moving the target!

IMO, a good teacher is one who makes you stretch. One who challenges you and from whom you learn whether you like them or not. I had a prof in college that the students could not stand. He was anal about how things should be done and couldn't deal with it when they weren't that way but, looking back, I reinforced what I learned every time I had to recopy assignments to put them in his preferred format. So much so that I never had to study for tests. So, it wasn't a waste of my time after all... It just seemed like it at the time. Kind of how my students think it's a waste of time that I make them take notes during lectures even if they can just print out the slides.
Not a bad definition overall, but if that's the solution why don't we just require kids to meet specific formatting on their work?

To repeat an earlier question:
What exactly would you do with an extra hour per day to motivate your unmotivated students?
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunninRebel View Post
Not a bad definition overall, but if that's the solution why don't we just require kids to meet specific formatting on their work?

To repeat an earlier question:
What exactly would you do with an extra hour per day to motivate your unmotivated students?
Obviously, this prof did more than just require a specific format. Requiring that format just meant we did the work twice. Once our way and once his. That review seemed to work.

One thing I'd love to try, if I could find another hour per day, is something that a couple of teachers in Texas have done. (I actually thought of this before reading their success story) They flipped their classroom. They made recorded smart board presentations (similar to Khan academy only on a level a student who hasn't had calculus can understand) and require their students to view those before class. Class is now about working with the students, often one on one to reinforce the material. I really do feel that, for one reason or another, my problem children just aren't getting the material and I think that success might breed success. I'd love to try this but I rarely have time to do the recordings. Or maybe I could do some reasearch into motivating the unmotivated....or plan some really cool labs to draw them in....

Even if I can't flip my classroom, kids could review those presentations at any time. Maybe they're too embarassed to admit they aren't following the lectures....maybe they act out because they're lost...I don't know but I think it's worth a try. The few I've managed to do have been met with requests for more from my college prep classes. I'm hoping to try it with my lower level classes when we go through balancing equations. Maybe I can take one topic per year and get it recorded and build a library. I wanted to do some of this over the summer but building maintenance had us out of the building most of the summer. Tech got me a lap board this year so I can do these at home now....I just need the time....WITHOUT burning myself out.

FTR, (because we know there are people who keep track of such things), when you see me posting a lot, that's when I'm at high risk for burning out. It means I'm on my computer for hours at a time and I flip out to post and take a much needed break, frequently. I'm ADD and it comes out when I'm juggling more than I can handle. Notice the time stamps on my posts this weekend. I've gotten about 10 hours sleep total.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-06-2011 at 03:04 PM..
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:05 PM
 
Location: here
24,469 posts, read 28,730,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
right.... she is arguing that she should get paid as much as an engineer while she is a teacher.

And yes, btw... I do believe that teachers should have the highest quality of education. Those with lower quality educations should not be teachers.
yes, I get it. The MIT engineering degree vs a state school engineering degree is completely irrelevant here.

Like I said, if I have a BS degree but am a checker at Target, I don't expect to get paid like I have a BS degree. I expect to get paid like I'm a checker at Target.
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
yes, I get it. The MIT engineering degree vs a state school engineering degree is completely irrelevant here.

Like I said, if I have a BS degree but am a checker at Target, I don't expect to get paid like I have a BS degree. I expect to get paid like I'm a checker at Target.
BUT you are not required to have a BS degree to be a checker at target. I am required to have a subject specific degree to teach. Mine happens to be in engineering instead of chemistry, which pays more than engineering BTW.
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